Daylilies forum: Question about cross and parentage

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Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
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cybersix
Jul 17, 2015 8:42 AM CST
I was looking on here at Awakening Spirit and see parentage is (Magical Passes x Equilibrium) x (Time for Eternity x Time in a Bottle)
What does it mean? It has two pod parents and two pollen parents?
I can't understand really this notation, can someone please explain it to me?
I thought you'd cross just two parents at a time Blinking
I'm feeling a bit stupid but I have to ask!
Thanks in advance!
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Peggy
Missouri (Zone 6a)
Pied Piper of Weeds
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hazeleyes
Jul 17, 2015 9:09 AM CST
means two seedlings
one was
pod parent
Magical Passes x Equilibrium
second one pollen parent
Time for Eternity x Time in a Bottle
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Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Jul 17, 2015 9:16 AM CST
oh now I see.. so instead of writing a generic "seedling" you can write the parents!
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jul 17, 2015 9:54 AM CST
I didn't know either, so glad you asked! I think you would use"seedling" when you don't know the parentage.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
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beckygardener
Jul 17, 2015 11:28 AM CST
Sabrina - You are asking good questions for someone who is getting interested in hybridizing.

To show you more about parentage, I sometimes do a hybridizing pedigree chart for some of my seedlings. This particular chart is for 4 seedlings from the same cross. Dragonfly Dawn x Dragonfly Dawn seeds. The original seller/hybridizer crossed DD with itself and then was selling those seeds. If memory serves me correctly, I don't think anyone bid on those seeds except me. But I had a gut feeling about them and I was more than right. I have learned to go with my inner voice on seed purchases and what to cross with what in my daylily beds.

Here is a pedigree chart of those 4 seedlings showing their family tree (enlarge the photo to see the entire chart):

Thumb of 2015-07-17/beckygardener/8cde62

As you can see, some of the bloom characteristics came from generations previous to the parents of these seedlings. It is quite fascinating to say the least. This is one of the big reason I am such a daylily addict. I never get bored of daylilies and hybridizing.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
[Last edited by beckygardener - Jul 17, 2015 11:29 AM (+)]
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Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
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blue23rose
Jul 17, 2015 11:44 AM CST
Becky, I just love looking at your charts and seeing how the colors play out. That is a interesting batch of seedlings DDxDD created for you!
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Jul 17, 2015 1:07 PM CST
@beckygardener, that's exactly where my question come from.
I wanted to play with colors and carachteristic of the flower parents of the DLs I crossed, but in this case, since I dont' know what hybrid came from the cross which originated awakening spirit, I can't.
The same is for my cross Spanish Glow x Victorian Days, parentage of Spanish Glow is unknown. End of the game! I'd love to have the pedigree too, even if it's only an experiment for now, my scientist brain can't keep itself from reading, taking notes, guessing and planning.
I'd love to guess what could come fromy crosses!

Yours 4 seedlings are very intriguing, you've done the right thing, always follow your istinct!
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jul 17, 2015 3:42 PM CST
Vickie - Thank you. I get a lot of visual information looking at such a chart. It helps me to determine where I might need to cross what plant with another to get a specific characteristic in the bloom.

Sabrina - Here is a look at 2 other pedigree charts where some genetics were either unknown or was a seedling that there is no known photo of:

Seedling CCC05:
Thumb of 2015-07-17/beckygardener/e21a98

Seedling CCC02:
Thumb of 2015-07-17/beckygardener/e79f0f

Even with a incomplete chart, you can get information.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Ashton & Terry
Jones, OK (Zone 7a)
Windswept Farm & Gardens
Hostas Lilies Hybridizer Keeps Sheep Pollen collector Irises
Hummingbirder Region: United States of America Daylilies Region: Oklahoma Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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kidfishing
Jul 18, 2015 9:33 PM CST
Very nice pedigree charts.
I like to know the parents and plan for some of my crosses. Back crosses sib crosses can be done to enhance traits, form, or colors. We do make lots of crosses just as experiment to answer the what if questions. Several of our best performers are our seedlings so we use them as much or more than named cultivars. We have more garden space than many people so we don't have to be as particular or limit ourselves. We do fail to get everything tagged and also loose several tags as we can get very strong winds.
Kidfishing
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jul 18, 2015 10:35 PM CST
Ashton - I am such a visual person. My imagination is lacking. But when I "SEE" something, then I can start to visualize an end result. Not that it is always predictable with daylilies, but at least you know what direction to go with for choosing parents with certain traits. I have to see it ... to create it. Which is why I was wowed by Maryott's pedigree charts and wanted to be able to make my own.

Thanks for the information about back-crossing parents as well as sibling crosses. I hadn't even thought about sibling crosses at all. Hmmmm .... that broadens my hybridizing a bit more. Thanks!

You know that when you create your own signature daylilies to use for hybridizing, that you are really on the path to creating YOUR own daylily collection line. It kind of reminds me of a fashion designer whose work has that certain flare and style that is easy to recognize. Smiling
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jul 18, 2015 10:53 PM CST
Ashton (or anyone for that matter) - If a particular daylily cultivar is in the family trees of both parents, does it often become a dominate trait? Example: CCC02 pedigree chart above. Etched Eyes is in the family tree of both parents of my seedling. And that is the very cultivar it resembles. If that is true (or even sometimes true) would that possibly work with rust resistance?

I have come across so many daylilies where their pedigree shows both rust resistance and rust susceptibility. I can't figure out how to determine if it would be a good rust resistant parent for hybridizing or not. If I crossed it with a rust resistant daylily with a 1.0 rating, would that likely bring it's children seedlings closer to exhibiting better rust resistance? Or would the rust susceptibility be dominant? I am probably asking questions that there is no definite and clear answer for. I don't have the land to just grow hundreds or thousands of seedlings every year. So you are right, Ashton, that it is easier for YOU to just hybridize to your hearts content and plant all your seeds every year to see what you get. Trial and error in a large playing field is so much easier than limited space. I have plenty of seeds, just not enough land to grow them all on. Rather frustrating.

I guess I just need to buy that winning lotto ticket! Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
[Last edited by beckygardener - Jul 18, 2015 10:55 PM (+)]
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Name: Ashton & Terry
Jones, OK (Zone 7a)
Windswept Farm & Gardens
Hostas Lilies Hybridizer Keeps Sheep Pollen collector Irises
Hummingbirder Region: United States of America Daylilies Region: Oklahoma Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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kidfishing
Jul 19, 2015 9:31 AM CST
A winning lotto ticket is the financial solution.
This can be a long discussion. Also, what is important in Florida may be of no concern in Ohio. The DL growers in Wisconsin may never know if a plant is resistant to rust or will be infested.
I have grown up raising registered livestock and with animal husbandry research, genetic traits have over time been able to be scored as Estimated Breeding Values (EBD's). Assigning a score for genetic traits allows selection based on your priorities. For example if you wanted to breed growth rate you could select parents with high EBD's for growth. This type of research has not been done when it comes to plants and it seem much more complex. When you line-breed (use the same parent genetics) you will increase the traits of the parents used. This will be both good and bad traits. (problem is you only know what you observe) I have discussed parent DL's with hybridizers and discover that personal research finds parents that pass on traits that the parent does not exhibit. ( it must be in the genetic make up and possibly a dominate trait)
The only way to do this is to establish standards of evaluation and collect the data from growers and breeders and evaluate and draw conclusions. This is very difficult with plants. (and not likely any money to do it) Plants are more varied with growing zones. Most likely it is very difficult to do in a calculated way. If we stumble on the something that works then propagate it and sell it.
The bottom line is that not all traits are equally inherited (dominate vs recessive) and we don't know for example how rust resistance passes on. If you have a goal and work with plants it is all about what you observe. After several generations the trait you were selecting for may appear and you find success. It can take a very long time, so I will leave it to Ashton (15 years old) if he keeps his interest in DL's maybe he can figure some of it out.
Terry
Kidfishing
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jul 19, 2015 10:06 AM CST
Terry - Thank you for giving me an honest answer. I pretty much figured what you might say, but I am new to hybridizing and I was hoping maybe there is some "secret" that hasn't been revealed about hybridizing plants. I am sure some pro hybridizers have indeed come to some solid observations and conclusions with some of their signature parent plants that they are NOT going to reveal. But in general, there must be some logical conclusion in plant genetics. I guess as you said, Plant genetics (especially daylilies) can be so complex that it would take years of studying to formulate an answer and even then that might only be true for certain cultivar of daylilies, not all.

Perhaps Ashton (and Jon, too) will figure it out. Maybe they will do a study for their Master's or Doctorate thesis. Big Grin I hope they share that info with the world if they do!

I will say that I NEVER cease to be surprised by what my seedlings produce in the way of blooms. It is more often a surprise than not! Whistling Hilarious! Thumbs up Thumbs up Thumbs up

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden

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