Post a reply

Image
Aug 4, 2015 8:57 AM CST
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis,MN, USA z4b,Dfb/a
Garden Photography The WITWIT Badge Seed Starter Wild Plant Hunter Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
I thought about Packera buds, too, but leaves are way off.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
Image
Aug 4, 2015 10:47 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Region: Ukraine Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Dog Lover
I'm going to go back & check out what all Janet suggested but I wanted to post this photo first before I forget. I went out today to see if there were any changes & just to see if there was anything I had overlooked. There was. Those leaves are sort of undulate so I took off my glasses & looked really hard. See what I found? These funny little "teeth" on the leaf margins. So now I don't quite know how to describe the leaf margins. Does this qualify it as serrate? Or dentate? Or is it still considered entire??? Confused

Thumb of 2015-08-04/flaflwrgrl/713b9f
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others. ~~ Sharon Brown
Image
Aug 4, 2015 11:25 AM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
Cat Lover Garden Photography Butterflies Birds Spiders!
Leaves (green to dark green) firm, margins entire, faces sparsely to moderately strigoso-scabrous, sometimes sparsely stipitate-glandular


I think stipitate-glandular might describe the raised bits, look carefully and you will see they aren't precisely on the leaf margin.

http://www.efloras.org/florata...

https://www.google.co.uk/searc...
Image
Aug 4, 2015 12:05 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Region: Ukraine Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Dog Lover
JRsbugs said:

I think stipitate-glandular might describe the raised bits, look carefully and you will see they aren't precisely on the leaf margin.

http://www.efloras.org/florata...

https://www.google.co.uk/searc...


Thank you. You're right. If nothing else I am learning both observational skills as well as botanical terms. By darn I'm determined to solve this though! It's such an interesting plant.
I have to take an eye break. I think my retina's are burned from looking so hard. I'm making my way down the list though. Smiling
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others. ~~ Sharon Brown
Image
Aug 4, 2015 12:36 PM CST
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis,MN, USA z4b,Dfb/a
Garden Photography The WITWIT Badge Seed Starter Wild Plant Hunter Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Thanks Ann, for that update.

Strigoso-scabrous would describe the leaf in question. Stipitate-glandular means glands on a short(often tiny) stalk. If there is no difference in width between the stalk (stipe) and what it subtends, sometimes it is only distinguishable under strong magnification. Curious though, that such a regular appearance and definite placement of stipitate glands would not be mentioned in the FNA.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
Image
Aug 4, 2015 12:58 PM CST
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
Shine Your Light!
Heirlooms Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener Hummingbirder Bee Lover Herbs
Butterflies Dragonflies Birds Cat Lover Dog Lover Garden Photography
Getting my seat, so I can see what your interesting plant is. nodding

It kinda reminds me of some kind of lettuce, especially when looking at the flower buds. And the fact that you said it's milky. Maybe Lactuca sarriola is a close match?

Although I feel like I just said that since I tried to get an ID not too long ago for Lactuca canadensis, and still not positive on that. So I might be way off.
May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Image
Aug 4, 2015 4:52 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Region: Ukraine Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Dog Lover
Leftwood said:Thanks Ann, for that update.

Strigoso-scabrous would describe the leaf in question. Stipitate-glandular means glands on a short(often tiny) stalk. If there is no difference in width between the stalk (stipe) and what it subtends, sometimes it is only distinguishable under strong magnification. Curious though, that such a regular appearance and definite placement of stipitate glands would not be mentioned in the FNA.


Thank you. I tip my hat to you.

Okay, eyes rested & back to work now.
I also found this referring to plant families/tribes/genus that have latex sap so I will be going through all of those. My work is cut out for me. Blinking
http://www.wildflower.org/expe...
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others. ~~ Sharon Brown
Last edited by flaflwrgrl Aug 4, 2015 4:53 PM Icon for preview
Image
Aug 4, 2015 4:56 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Region: Ukraine Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Dog Lover
wildflowers said:Getting my seat, so I can see what your interesting plant is. nodding

It kinda reminds me of some kind of lettuce, especially when looking at the flower buds. And the fact that you said it's milky. Maybe Lactuca sarriola is a close match?

Although I feel like I just said that since I tried to get an ID not too long ago for Lactuca canadensis, and still not positive on that. So I might be way off.


Thanks Christine but no match. The leaves on L. serriola are cut not entire. I did check the Lactuca for FL yesterday & came up empty.
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others. ~~ Sharon Brown
Image
Aug 4, 2015 6:26 PM CST
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
Shine Your Light!
Heirlooms Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener Hummingbirder Bee Lover Herbs
Butterflies Dragonflies Birds Cat Lover Dog Lover Garden Photography
Ann, I looked too and you're right, there doesn't seem to be any lettuce with leaves like yours.

Now I'm starting to think Senecio, some of the leaves look clasping similar to some senecios I've seen. Although I have no idea if they have milky sap or not. I'll take a look. nodding
May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Image
Aug 4, 2015 7:18 PM CST
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
Shine Your Light!
Heirlooms Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener Hummingbirder Bee Lover Herbs
Butterflies Dragonflies Birds Cat Lover Dog Lover Garden Photography
My search led me to this plant, it's in the same family as Senecio (Asteraceae) but it's name is coincidentally 'Rough white Lettuce', Prenanthes aspera. It doesn't say its in Florida but just maybe...

http://www.illinoiswildflowers...
http://plants.usda.gov/core/pr...

There's another similar that is found up north - Prenanthes racemosa.
May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Image
Aug 4, 2015 7:29 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
Cat Lover Garden Photography Butterflies Birds Spiders!
Two Senecio species in Florida, Senecio cannabinifolius, and Senecio vulgaris, nowhere near.

http://luirig.altervista.org/f...

http://www.cgf.net/plantdetail...

Drawing attention once more to Symphyotrichum fontinale:

The species is distinguished by its lower stem leaves not constricted toward the base


http://garden.org/pics/2015-07...

Christine, Prenanthes aspera is very different.

http://www.kansasnativeplants....
Image
Aug 4, 2015 7:53 PM CST
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
Shine Your Light!
Heirlooms Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener Hummingbirder Bee Lover Herbs
Butterflies Dragonflies Birds Cat Lover Dog Lover Garden Photography
I should try not to be wrong so often. Let me get back in my chair and shush. nodding
May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Image
Aug 4, 2015 8:08 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Region: Ukraine Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Dog Lover
Okay, take a look at this:
http://eol.org/pages/392580/de...
http://florida.plantatlas.usf.... - I am located less than 100 miles east of the finding in Leon county in 1956.
http://georgiawildlife.com/sit...
http://hawthornhillwildflowers...
http://ecos.fws.gov/docs/candi...

I don't think this is *quite* it but then again - variables & all that. I rely on your expertise over my own. This gives me great hope though because it does seem so close. I sure wish it would bloom! The bush hog is coming this week or next & I will stake off that area & put bright flagging to make sure he doesn't mow them down or turn his tractor wheels on them. I could dig one up to see about it's rhizomes but I am loathe to - but will in the interest of science. I have from the beginning suspected it spreads by rhizomes. Partly a gut instinct & partly b/c they are clustered or grouped together in 1 area. There is 1 lone one about 25-30' away but otherwise it's just the one grouping.

It's getting late, I'm tired & still have to brush & floss before bed so Janet I will look at your last post tomorrow. For now my mind needs a rest.
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others. ~~ Sharon Brown
Last edited by flaflwrgrl Aug 4, 2015 8:23 PM Icon for preview
Image
Aug 5, 2015 3:48 AM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
Cat Lover Garden Photography Butterflies Birds Spiders!
The leaves of Symphyotrichum georgianum are not the correct shape, they are much broader in the middle.

http://2bnthewild.com/plants/H...

Enjoy your rest Christine. Hilarious!
Image
Aug 5, 2015 4:54 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Region: Ukraine Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Dog Lover
http://eol.org/pages/392580/de...
Leaves (dark green) thick, firm, margins revolute (sometimes ± undulate), scabrous; basal early deciduous, sessile or subpetiolate, blades spatulate to obovate [size unknown], bases cuneate, margins entire to ± serrate, apices acute, faces finely scabrous; proximal cauline withering by flowering, sessile, blades (adaxially obscurely veined) oblong to lanceolate or narrowly obovate to oblanceolate, proximalmost ± pandurate, 20–70 × 10–20 mm, gradually reduced distally, bases auriculate-clasping, margins entire, finely scabrous, faces finely scabrous, stipitate-glandular; distal sessile, blades lanceolate to oblanceolate, 14–50 × 6–11 mm, reduced distally (much smaller on branches and grading ± abruptly into bracts), bases ± auriculate-clasping to subclasping, margins entire, apices mucronate to white-spinulose, faces scabrous, sometimes sparsely to moderately stipitate-glandular.
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others. ~~ Sharon Brown
Image
Aug 5, 2015 11:56 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Region: Ukraine Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Dog Lover
The biggest problem I'm having with Symphyotrichum fontinale is that I can not find a photo of the leaves. There seem to be photos only of the plants at a distance & mixed in with other vegetation so that you really can't get a look at the leaves.
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others. ~~ Sharon Brown
Image
Aug 5, 2015 12:31 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
Cat Lover Garden Photography Butterflies Birds Spiders!
Not being able to compare to good photos makes it difficult, but if you go through each of the identifying features it does appear to fit Symphyotrichum fontinale. Finding photos of other species of which are readily available doesn't give any good reason to veer away from the identifying features. I could be wrong!

The main identifying feature which separates it from other species is:

The species is distinguished by its lower stem leaves --- not constricted toward the base


To make that clearer, as I understand it, look at this photo of yours which I have tried to point out where these features are ... lower stems leaves at the bottom of the stem; not constricted toward the base with 'base' being the area of the leaf adjoining the stem, i.e the leaf continues to be about the same width for most of the length. 'Distinguished' is what separates it from others making it conspicuous.

Thumb of 2015-08-05/JRsbugs/2e4587
Image
Aug 5, 2015 1:26 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Region: Ukraine Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Dog Lover
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Well why don't they just use plain english then & say the lower leaves don't get narrower at the base?
Okay, the other thing that hangs me up some is the size of the leaves. My leaves are larger than any I have researched thus far. Especially the lower stems leaves. It doesn't even seem to be close either - it's like they're all well over an inch - sometimes over 2" smaller than mine. I know there are variables but that much?????
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others. ~~ Sharon Brown
Last edited by flaflwrgrl Aug 5, 2015 2:32 PM Icon for preview
Image
Aug 5, 2015 1:34 PM CST
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
Shine Your Light!
Heirlooms Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener Hummingbirder Bee Lover Herbs
Butterflies Dragonflies Birds Cat Lover Dog Lover Garden Photography
Thank you, Janet. I had a nice rest. Hilarious!

I'm still looking quietly.
May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Image
Aug 5, 2015 1:45 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
Cat Lover Garden Photography Butterflies Birds Spiders!
Leaves:

basal absent at flowering


proximal cauline usually withering by flowering, sessile, blades obovate to oblanceolate, 25–80 × 5–18 mm


Meaning, once it flowers the bottom leaves will have dried up and dropped off. That could be why the leaves on the poor photo don't look large. 80mm is over 3 inches, yours are larger I admit but sizes don't always add up and differ according to health of plant and growing conditions.

http://www.efloras.org/florata...

We will know more once the flowers open.

Look and learn at your leisure Christine. If this isn't correct, at least we are learning.

Only the members of the Members group may reply to this thread.
Member Login:

( No account? Join now! )

Today's site banner is by Zoia and is called "Volunteer"

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.