Post a reply

Image
Aug 28, 2015 2:37 PM CST
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Garden Photography Cat Lover Daylilies Region: Europe Lilies Garden Ideas: Level 1
We're expecting two hot days (today was hot) for the weekend, maybe until tuesday, so I hope it will toast Hilarious!
Hours of sunlight have decreased.... that plant gets only 2-3 hours of sun a day.
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallis.info
Image
Aug 28, 2015 2:51 PM CST
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Bee Lover Ponds Peonies Irises Garden Art Dog Lover
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Canadian Butterflies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters
My first indication that my first pod was ready was that it cracked open slightly. I could see the black seeds inside. It didn't get dry or crunchy because it ripened on rainy, humid days, so the seed pod was shriveled and soft.
It is going to be hot and dry here next week, so I hope it helps some of the pods on my other daylilies ripen.
I can't wait to see how your pod turns out Smiling
Touch_of_sky on the LA
Canada Zone 5a
Image
Aug 28, 2015 2:55 PM CST
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Garden Photography Cat Lover Daylilies Region: Europe Lilies Garden Ideas: Level 1
Tomorrow I'll put an organza bag on the pod, so I won't lose any seed if it should ripen while I'm not watching Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

I'm going out 3-4 times a day to check it!
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallis.info
Image
Aug 28, 2015 3:28 PM CST
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Bee Lover Ponds Peonies Irises Garden Art Dog Lover
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Canadian Butterflies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters
I did that, too!
Touch_of_sky on the LA
Canada Zone 5a
Image
Aug 28, 2015 5:25 PM CST
Name: Sue Petruske
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
Glad to hear that I'm not the only one checking so often. "A watched pot never boils". Rolling on the floor laughing
Image
Aug 28, 2015 8:16 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Daylilies Dog Lover Houseplants Organic Gardener I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Garden Ideas: Level 2
cybersix said:
Just one digit? Someone should notify the developer!


Someone did. Whistling

I am used to being the bug-finder for my husband's program, so I've been sending Kent (PlantStep's creator) a bunch of feedback to help him out...I'm not sure if he finds it useful or not though.
Image
Aug 29, 2015 6:06 AM CST
Name: Teresa Felty Barrow
South central KY (Zone 6b)
SONGBIRD GARDENS
Birds Hummingbirder Hybridizer Irises Lilies Peonies
Sempervivums Plant and/or Seed Trader Region: United States of America Vegetable Grower Hostas Heucheras
Well, I am bummed I have been watching my pods on Bluegrass Chocolate Frost this morning a few was gone! I looked on the ground. Maybe I waited to late Angry Any way I picked the others and brought them inside. I didn't take pictures but the pods are the darkest that I have in the garden. It has a dark bloom.



Thank you, touch of sky for the compliment.
Bee Kind, make the world a better place.
Last edited by bluegrassmom Aug 29, 2015 6:08 AM Icon for preview
Image
Aug 29, 2015 7:01 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Daylilies Dog Lover Houseplants Organic Gardener I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Garden Ideas: Level 2
Big Grin Lovey dubby Hurray! Big Grin Lovey dubby Hurray! Big Grin Lovey dubby Hurray! Big Grin Lovey dubby Hurray! Big Grin Lovey dubby Hurray! Big Grin Lovey dubby Hurray! Big Grin Lovey dubby Hurray! Big Grin Lovey dubby Hurray! Big Grin Lovey dubby Hurray!

I just harvested a pod off of another one of my small cultivars (this one is an Olallie Keith Stone's Sunset x Starman's Quest cross) and there were TWENTY-ONE (21) seeds in the pod!!!!! I couldn't believe it!!! One was squishy, but the other 20 look/feel viable!

Two shorter-variety harvests is hardly enough to go on, but has anyone else noticed that shorter cultivars give more seeds, by chance? My last incredible harvest (14 seeds, 10 viable) was also a shorter variety (Little Grapette x Pardon Me).

I am SO EXCITED! And, yet again, I can't put in the accurate number in PlantStep. Glare I'll just have to look at my notes really carefully this season and hope that there is a PlantStep update that fixes the issue in the future! Smiling
Image
Aug 29, 2015 4:59 PM CST
Name: Maurice
Grey Highlands, Ontario (Zone 5a)
Diploids should have more seeds in a pod than tetraploids.

Within ploidy there might be a relationship between the size of the flower and the number of seeds. Anyone have any numbers?
Image
Aug 30, 2015 5:20 AM CST
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
Daylilies Hybridizer Irises Butterflies Charter ATP Member Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Birds Region: Michigan Vegetable Grower Hummingbirder Heucheras Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
Maurice, I picked a pod off of Dallas Star recently and it had l0 seeds, which is a lot for that cultivar. Most of the time it only gives me 5. Then, I picked a pod off of Ruby Stella, which is a much smaller bloom, and I got 48 seeds from one pod. So, I am not sure flower size has anything to do with it. Also got more seeds from Siloam Double Classic in one pod than I got from Starman's Quest.
Lighthouse Gardens
Last edited by Hemlady Aug 30, 2015 5:29 AM Icon for preview
Image
Aug 30, 2015 7:04 AM CST
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Bee Lover Ponds Peonies Irises Garden Art Dog Lover
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Canadian Butterflies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Last week l picked a seed pod from Russian Easter and it only had 5 seeds and yesterday a seed pod from tiny Mini Stella had 10.
Touch_of_sky on the LA
Canada Zone 5a
Image
Aug 30, 2015 7:14 AM CST
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
I am always amazed that often the daylilies that make those big pods have fewer seeds than the smaller pods. Diploids usually have more seeds than tetraploids, also.

Cindy - 48 seeds in 1 pod?!!! WOW!!! That is impressive! Thumbs up
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Image
Aug 30, 2015 7:50 AM CST
Name: Maurice
Grey Highlands, Ontario (Zone 5a)
Hemlady said: So, I am not sure flower size has anything to do with it.


Unfortunately, one would have to examine a large number of crosses using plants of different flower sizes and then do a statistical analysis. There is always variability in any characteristic and that variability affects whether we can easily see a relationship from a few values.

In this case we would be looking for a relationship between flower size and the number of seeds. Ovary size would presumably be related to pistil size and pistil size would presumably be related to flower size and the number of ovules (which develop into seed). But the relationship would never be tight - that is highly correlated but it might nevertheless be significantly correlated.

Below is an example of the correlation between flower size and scape height. These are relatively tightly correlated (for some unknown reason).

Thumb of 2015-08-30/admmad/f6b865

The correlation between flower size and scape height is 0.74 (it can range from -1 to +1 - a correlation coefficient that is not significantly different from zero means that we conclude that the two measurements are not related). The correlation coefficient of 0.74 is highly statistically significant and we can conclude that there is a relationship between flower size and scape height.

It is important to note that even though there is a very strong relationship between flower size and scape height seen in these observations there is also lots of variability. Many cultivars have flower sizes and scape heights that do not fit the relationship at all closely. The correlation coefficient can be much smaller (closer to zero) and as long as it is significantly different from zero then we conclude that there is a relationship. The closer to zero the more variability there is in the measurements and the relationship (that is presumably because other factors will affect the two measurements).

So we need to choose cultivars at random and measure their flower sizes and the number of seeds in their pods. But to be objective and accurate we would have had to pollinate all the cultivars we choose with pollen from the same cultivar. That is because different cultivars have pollen with different characteristics. We should probably also have pollinated the pod parents on the same days (and if we did not pollinate them all on one day then we should record which cultivars were pollinated on which days). The pollen we use needs to be the same because one cultivar may have pollen that is 85% effective and produces say 10,000 pollen grains in one anther while another cultivar may have pollen that is only 50% effective and produces say 7,000 pollen grains in one anther. Even if we counted pollen grains and placed the same number of grains on the stigmas of the same pod parent the pods produced by the different pollen parents would probably contain different numbers of seeds. Pods produced by pollen parent 1 would have more seeds than pods produced by pollen parent 2.

Doing a valid test of ideas using any living organism, such as daylilies, is always complex and involved, with many possible steps that can lead to failure if not properly accounted for.
Maurice
Last edited by admmad Aug 30, 2015 7:52 AM Icon for preview
Image
Aug 30, 2015 8:02 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Daylilies Dog Lover Houseplants Organic Gardener I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Garden Ideas: Level 2
I've actually done a number of crosses this season where I would cross the same two cultivars on the same day so that I could see how, all other things being equal (weather, time of day, etc...), how well certain pollinators perform and differences between the children plants (assuming I grow all of the seeds out. I wasn't doing it with the intention of seeing seed count differences, but that would be an awesome by-product of the experiment.

I ran into some difficulties, but I intend to retry my experiment next year when I have more blooms to work with and a little more knowledge about what works and what doesn't. (I started the somewhat unsuccessful experiment because I'm very curious to test the theory I have read multiple times that children plants tend to take after their pod parent in terms of plant characteristics.)
Image
Aug 30, 2015 9:00 AM CST
Name: Maurice
Grey Highlands, Ontario (Zone 5a)
DogsNDaylilies said: (I started the somewhat unsuccessful experiment because I'm very curious to test the theory I have read multiple times that children plants tend to take after their pod parent in terms of plant characteristics.)

I have written about that traditional belief several times, including in an article in the Daylily Journal. There is no evidence that any characteristic (except possibly some instances of green/non-green variegation) is determined differently by either parent - that is, the characteristics of children plants are equally determined by both parents.

Testing the possibility is quite complex if we want to be scientific and objective. An important part of the test is the objectivity of the person doing the test. Unfortunately, it is quite difficult to be objective and there are many instances of subconscious lack of objectivity (bias) particularly with this belief.
The important step then is that the characteristics of the seedlings and parents must be measured (observed) in a blind manner. The person doing the observations must not know the identity of the plants being measured or what the pod parents and pollen parents are of the seedlings being measured.
The second problem is that if one does cross cultivar A x cultivar B to produce seedlings AB and the cross B x A to produce seedlings BA one must then plant the seeds. One cannot choose which seeds are planted (so one cannot choose the largest seeds or the hardest seeds, etc.) one must choose seeds at random from each cross to plant. One cannot choose which seedlings are kept (one cannot choose the largest seedlings or the greenest or the most vigorous, etc). One must choose seedlings at random from each cross.
The next problem is that usually one plants the seedlings from cross AB in one location and the seedlings from the cross BA in another location. Unfortunately, it is known that locations are different no matter how much we think they are the same. So planting the seedlings from the two crosses in two different locations is not appropriate (Even if those two locations are rows side by side.) The objective method around this problem is to divide the seedlings from each cross into several groups (say three) randomly of equal size and to choose three different locations to plant. In each location one might have two rows side by side. In each location one would choose which cross would be planted in row 1 at random. The end result would be that there would be three locations - in location one, row one might be BA and row two would be AB. In location two row one might be AB and row two would be BA and in location three row one might be AB and row two would be BA. Which rows are which cross would depend on random chance. The measurements of the seedlings from each location would need to be kept separate.
After the observations are made (by a person who did not know the identities of the seedlings) they would need to be analyzed statistically - so there would need to be enough seedlings to do reasonably valid tests (say at least five of each cross in each location - so a total of at least 15 seedlings of each cross). And to make the results more general one would need to do a number of different reciprocal crosses using different parents.
Maurice
Last edited by admmad Aug 30, 2015 12:57 PM Icon for preview
Image
Aug 30, 2015 5:22 PM CST
Name: Maurice
Grey Highlands, Ontario (Zone 5a)
I am going to describe a test of the pod versus pollen parent belief based on the information from the AHS registration database. This is not a scientific example but it looks for evidence that the two parents contribute differently to their seedlings flower size or scape height.

Using the recorded information from the AHS registrations this is what I did.

Since ploidy may have an effect on flower size and scape height only diploid registrations were analyzed.

First I needed to check that there was not a relationship between scape height and when a cultivar was registered. I ran regressions of plant height over time for various time periods looking for the end of the period of selection of shorter plant heights. It turned out that hybridizers selected for shorter scapes until about the early 1990s. Before that time there was a bias that caused scape heights of registered cultivars to be shorter each decade.
I then chose a time period after that point during which there was no significant regression (1994-2000). I chose only those registrations with both a single known pod and a single known pollen parent from that time period. There was no other selection of records. I sorted on pod parent name and I then looked up the parents' characteristics (flower size, height separately) until an arbitrary number had been accumulated. I then resorted on pollen parent name and I then looked up the parents' characteristics until an arbitrary number had been accumulated. I then resorted on both fields being numerical rather than strings and extracted all those that matched.

Scape Height
When I analyzed the relationship between the pod parent's scape height and its seedling's scape height I found that seedlings and their pod parent have a correlation coefficient of 0.47 and a standard error of ± 0.03 for scape height for a sample size (N) of 856 crosses. When I analyzed the relationship between the pollen parent's scape height and its seedling's scape height I found that the correlation between the seedlings and their pollen parent is 0.52 ± 0.03. The correlations are not statistically different. Correlation measures how similar the seedlings are to their parents in the characteristic being measured. If the pod parent determined scape height then the correlation between the pod parent and its seedling would be high and the correlation between the pollen parent and its seedling would be low, near zero and not significant. What we find is that both parents make equal contributions to their seedlings scape height and that is exactly what we expect from quantitative genetic theory.

Daylily seedlings resemble their pod and pollen parents equally in scape height. Scape height is inherited equally from the pod and the pollen parent.

Flower Size
When I looked at the relationship between the pod parent's flower size and its seedling's flower size I found that the correlation for flower size between seedlings and their pod parent is 0.62 ± 0.02, with a sample size of N = 1889 crosses. When I looked at the relationship between the pollen parent's flower size and its seedling's flower size I found that the flower size of seedlings is correlated 0.59 ± 0.02 with that of their pollen parent. The correlations are not statistically different.

Again, if the pod parent determined the seedling's flower size then the correlation between the pod parent's flower size and its seedling's flower size would be large and that between the pollen parent's flower size and its seedling's flower size would be small, near zero and not significant. That is not what I found. Both parents contribute equally to their seedling's flower size and that is what we expect from quantitative genetic theory.

Daylily seedlings resemble their pod and pollen parents equally in flower size. Flower size is inherited equally from the pod and the pollen parent.

There is another way to look at the registration information. I have also analyzed specific types of reciprocal crosses from the registration database to double check the more general results. For example, when cultivars with four inch flowers were crossed with cultivars with six inch flowers (4” X 6”) the seedlings had an average flower size of 5.11”, N=20 crosses (I did not choose which specific crosses to analyze; they were simply the first 20 in the listing). If the pod parent determines flower size the seedlings should have had flower sizes closer to four inches. The seedlings from the reciprocal cross (6” X 4”) had an average flower size of 5.09”, N=26 crosses. If the pod parent determines flower size the seedlings should have had an average flower size closer to six inches. The reciprocal difference is not significant. In any case it is in the pollen parent's direction not the pod parent's. The average flower size of the seedlings is the same no matter whether the pod parent has a flower size of 4 inches or of six inches and that is what quantitative genetic theory tells us should be the situation.

Again the seedling does not resemble its pod parent any more than it does its pollen parent.

What about flower colour? We could look at the inheritance of red flower colour, but Arisumi, a geneticist already did so - he did not find that the pod parent determined flower colour. Both parents determined flower colour.

Most of the material in this post was from my article Daylily Genetics Part 4 Pod or Pollen Parent: Do they determine different seedling characteristics? in the AHS Daylily Journal Winter issue 2011.
Maurice
Last edited by admmad Aug 30, 2015 8:06 PM Icon for preview
Image
Aug 31, 2015 5:38 PM CST
Name: Sue Petruske
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
I couldn't believe it when I got 40 seeds in a pod Cranberry Cove x Siloam Double Classic. With a lot of hot weather and dry too, some pods were only producing 1 to 6 seeds (but I think many of these were pollenated by insects). A few had up to 15, but this one today blew me away. Smiling By the way it was pollenated July 6th and picked August 31st.

Thumb of 2015-08-31/petruske/81a5f4
Image
Aug 31, 2015 8:21 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Daylilies Dog Lover Houseplants Organic Gardener I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Garden Ideas: Level 2
Isn't it amazing how so many seeds can fit into one seed pod? My record so far was 24 seeds, I think. Today was crazy with pods starting to crack open, though...until today it was just a couple per day, but today was about a dozen or so.
Image
Aug 31, 2015 8:47 PM CST
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
Daylilies Hybridizer Irises Butterflies Charter ATP Member Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Birds Region: Michigan Vegetable Grower Hummingbirder Heucheras Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
I had about 40 pods open today. Boy was I busy.
Lighthouse Gardens
Image
Sep 1, 2015 7:15 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Daylilies Dog Lover Houseplants Organic Gardener I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Garden Ideas: Level 2
Maurice, everything you say is very true for a test of 'equal variability' among seedlings, yet I still think it is somewhat reasonable to wonder about the general results and tendencies. Rolling my eyes. I cannot control all factors, but I hope to plant some of my A x B and B x A crosses in the garden beds I have at some point in the future and simply see if there is a strong favoring toward plant characteristics of one parent or the other based on pre-determined attributes (Height of foliage, branch count, etc...)

It might not be possible to account for all variables, but if there is a strong enough leaning toward one or the other in the seedlings then it might make it worth ensuring that I don't even bother with pod parents that have poor plant habits. ...Before you argue that I should already have this philosophy, though, please note that some of my plants were purchased before I had established exactly which plant characteristics I thought were most important Whistling Smiling and some were purchased because they had other great traits that I hoped to cross with cultivars that had better plant habits.

I feel like it should be easy enough for one of the databases (AHS, ATP, PlantStep, etc...) to compile data on scape height, branching, etc...and use that to determine the liklihood of certain traits being passed down from one parent or the other, but this would only be partially useful because not all seedlings are recorded/measured and many times the taller plants are favored and the results would be skewed toward the taller daylily parents.

Anyway, though, I feel like this would make a good, informal experiment in my own garden and I'm curious to see what the result is should I pursue it myself. Smiling

You must first create a username and login before you can reply to this thread.
Member Login:

( No account? Join now! )

Today's site banner is by Zoia and is called "Volunteer"

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.