Views: 521, Replies: 9 » Jump to the end
As a comment about Zinnia (Zinnia 'Profusion Double Cherry'), ZenMan wrote:

Profusion zinnias are Zinnia marylandica, and not Zinnia peruviana as listed here.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
Clematis Irises Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages
Image
zuzu
Aug 6, 2015 12:52 PM CST

Plants Admin

Z. marylandica is a colchicine-induced hybrid and does not occur in the wild. It therefore is not included in the main taxonomic databases as an accepted species name.
Name: ZenMan
rural Kansas (Zone 5b)
Kansas 5b
Annuals Keeper of Poultry Enjoys or suffers cold winters Bee Lover Dragonflies Garden Photography
Hybridizer Region: United States of America Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 2
ZenMan
Aug 7, 2015 10:11 AM CST
zuzu said:Z. marylandica is a colchicine-induced hybrid and does not occur in the wild. It therefore is not included in the main taxonomic databases as an accepted species name.


I repeat, Profusion zinnias are not Z. peruviana. Nor was Z. peruviana involved in their creation. The Z. marylandicas were derived from Z. violacea (elegans) and Z. angustifolia.

It is possibly true that Profusions do not "occur in the wild", but neither do the thousands of extensively hybridized ornamental plants. And it is possible that by now Profusions have escaped cultivation and are growing in the wild in environments that are favorable to them. Taxonomy is not excluded from cultivated plants.

Incidentally, colchicine is not the only substance used to double chromosome numbers. And academic authorities do accept Z. marylandica as a species name. No credible source would claim that Profusions are Z. peruviana .

ZM
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
Clematis Irises Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages
Image
zuzu
Aug 7, 2015 12:17 PM CST

Plants Admin

I think I can guess how the Profusion zinnias in our database acquired that botanical name. They probably were mistakenly entered initially as Zinnia hybrida because they're hybrids. Zinnia hybrida is a synonym for Zinnia peruviana, however, so the botanical name would have been edited at some point. I'll delete the species portion of the botanical name for the Profusion zinnias. I won't add marylandica to their names because it is not an accepted botanical name at this time. Academic authorities may accept it, but taxonomic authorities do not.
Name: ZenMan
rural Kansas (Zone 5b)
Kansas 5b
Annuals Keeper of Poultry Enjoys or suffers cold winters Bee Lover Dragonflies Garden Photography
Hybridizer Region: United States of America Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 2
ZenMan
Aug 7, 2015 1:32 PM CST
zuzu said:Zinnia hybrida is a synonym for Zinnia peruviana, ...


Zinnia hybrida is not a synonym for Zinnia peruviana.

zuzu said: I won't add marylandica to their names because it is not an accepted botanical name at this time. Academic authorities may accept it, but taxonomic authorities do not.


Which "taxonomic authorities" do not accept the academic authorities? I can quote academic authorities. One is Chapter 12 titled "Zinnia" by Dennis Stimart and Thomas Boyle in the book, "Flower Breeding and Genetics", Springer, 2006. http://www.amazon.com/Flower-Breeding-Genetics-Challenges-Op...

Since most, if not all, Taxonomic books and papers are written by members of academia, your statement that taxonomic authorities do not accept the work of academic authorities raises questions.

ZM

Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
Clematis Irises Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages
Image
zuzu
Aug 7, 2015 2:10 PM CST

Plants Admin

Yes, Zinnia hybrida is a synonym for Z. peruviana.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/details/species/id/e9ed8e...

It's not a matter of taxonomic authorities not accepting the work of academic authorities, and that's not what I said. I'm saying that academic authorities may accept a species name when taxonomic authorities do not accept it. Most of the taxonomic databases list only the hybrid taxa that occur in the wild and do not list the names of "man-made" hybrid taxa.
Name: ZenMan
rural Kansas (Zone 5b)
Kansas 5b
Annuals Keeper of Poultry Enjoys or suffers cold winters Bee Lover Dragonflies Garden Photography
Hybridizer Region: United States of America Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 2
ZenMan
Aug 8, 2015 9:07 PM CST
Hi Zuzu,

Off the topic for the moment, I notice there is a problem with the security certificate with this websites entry point. I get this message: (copy & pasted)

There is a problem with this website’s security certificate.
The security certificate presented by this website has expired or is not yet valid.
Security certificate problems may indicate an attempt to fool you or intercept any data you send to the server.
We recommend that you close this webpage and do not continue to this website.
Recommended iconClick here to close this webpage.
Not recommended iconContinue to this website (not recommended).

Since I have no official status with this website, perhaps you could notify Dave.

ZM
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Region: California Plant Database Moderator Roses Irises Clematis Garden Photography
Cottage Gardener Keeper of Poultry Hummingbirder Bee Lover Butterflies Birds
Image
Calif_Sue
Aug 8, 2015 9:13 PM CST

Plants Admin

@dave

Why would one need "official status" to notify Dave? Blinking Anyone can post in the Site Forum to report any issues and they are taken care of usually within hours, if not minutes. Thumbs up
My gardening Blog!
Hand sewn wares and vintage finds in my Etsy store. Summer Song Cottage
[Last edited by Calif_Sue - Aug 8, 2015 9:17 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #924189 (7)
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
Clematis Irises Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages
Image
zuzu
Aug 8, 2015 9:14 PM CST

Plants Admin

Hi, ZM. Some other people noticed this today and started a thread about it in the Site Talk Forum. I hope their solutions help you.

The thread "Expired ATP Certificate" in Site Talk forum
Name: ZenMan
rural Kansas (Zone 5b)
Kansas 5b
Annuals Keeper of Poultry Enjoys or suffers cold winters Bee Lover Dragonflies Garden Photography
Hybridizer Region: United States of America Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 2
ZenMan
Aug 8, 2015 10:07 PM CST
Hi again Zuzu,

I think the reason we have disagreement over whether Zinnia hybrida is a synonym for Zinnia peruviana or not is that there are two totally different meanings for the word "synonym".

I was making the assertion that "Zinnia hybrida is not a synonym for Zinnia peruviana" in the normal meaning of the word, implying equality or interchangeability. You were basing your statement on the list of taxonomic synonyms in the Catalog of Life. The meaning of the word "synonym" in the Catalog of Life is entirely different. It does not imply equality, but instead is a list of incorrectly identified references to Zinnia peruviana (in which the writer used some other identification, a taxonomic synonym.) The CoL list of synonyms listed two different occurrences of the incorrect use of the phrase "Zinnia hybrida" in reference to Zinnia peruviana.

Incidentally, your link to the Catalog of Life entry seems to be broken at this moment.

The special meaning of the word "synonym" in a taxonomic context is described in this Wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synonym_(taxonomy)

You made the mistake of thinking that the Catalog of Life synonym list empowered you to substitute the phrase "Zinnia peruviana" for the phrase "Zinnia hybrida", which it does not.

Incidentally, I did some exploration in the Catalog of Life in the area of zinnias, which I know something about, and found that it was far from up to date and not a useful resource or reference. Too bad it's not up to date. It could be useful if it were. I will not be referring to it for my own use. They are still working on it and maybe some day it will be a reliable reference.

ZM

[Last edited by ZenMan - Aug 8, 2015 10:10 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #924217 (9)
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
Clematis Irises Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages
Image
zuzu
Aug 8, 2015 10:27 PM CST

Plants Admin

Yes, that page is currently unavailable. Maybe it's being updated.

I'm well aware of the definition of taxonomic synonyms, which are obsolete genus or species names that have been reclassified as a different genus or species. This is the definition the Catalogue of Life uses, and it's the definition we use in our database.

The Plant List (which I rarely consult because it's woefully outdated) also names Zinnia hybrida as a synonym of Z. peruviana and the common (horticultural) use 0f Zinnia hybrida as an unresolved name.

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/gcc-90563

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/gcc-33768

ITIS is a reliable source, though not as up to date as the Catalogue of Life, but it is limited and doesn't include Zinnia hybrida among its entries.
[Last edited by zuzu - Dec 3, 2016 12:15 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #924222 (10)

« Garden.org Homepage
« Back to the top
« Forums List
« Comment concerning Zinnia (Zinnia 'Profusion Double Cherry')
You must first create a username and login before you can reply to this thread.

Today's site banner is by dirtdorphins and is called "Dianthus 'Nyewood Cream'"