Plant Database forum: Include"Native to..."

Views: 360, Replies: 17 » Jump to the end
Name: Kim
Iowa (Zone 5a)
I kill ornamentals... on purpose.
Enjoys or suffers cold winters Spiders! Critters Allowed Birds Houseplants I helped beta test the first seed swap
Region: Nebraska Keeper of Poultry Rabbit Keeper Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Procrastinator Garden Ideas: Level 2
Chillybean
Aug 26, 2015 10:12 AM CST
I think it might be helpful to at least some, to have this information within the General Plant Information. It would make the data more complete and help folk stay on this site instead of looking elsewhere. (This is from personal experience) I know this can be included in comments, but it would be easier to notice if it is within the chart.

Could this be a possibility?
Thank you so much.

Name: Lin
Florida (Zone 9b)
Region: United States of America Morning Glories Region: Florida Houseplants Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Procrastinator Birds Butterflies Bee Lover Hummingbirder Container Gardener
Image
plantladylin
Aug 26, 2015 12:28 PM CST
Kim, I'd love to see native status included in the general information section. I too doubt that most would think to read all the comments to see if perhaps someone listed the native status in that section. I'm not sure how or where Native Status would be shown in the database since some plants are native to many different states and countries but it sure would be helpful to have that listing! Thumbs up
~ Eat, Sleep .... Play in the dirt ~
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
Image
needrain
Aug 26, 2015 1:01 PM CST
Wouldn't the problem be knowing if it was truly a native plant as opposed to an imported plant that has successfully transitioned to a new geographic area? I'm thinking 'Johnson Grass' and 'Kudzu' and, I think, Bermuda grass as well. In some areas they have become so ubiquitous that I wonder if most people realize they aren't considered native plants. Distinguishing between an indigenous plant and an introduced plant might be difficult.

Of course, for those really successful interlopers they might as well be considered native at some point. They aren't going to go away.

I do like to know the origins of plants, though. That provides a lot of knowledge about what a plant may require to thrive.
Donald
Name: Kim
Iowa (Zone 5a)
I kill ornamentals... on purpose.
Enjoys or suffers cold winters Spiders! Critters Allowed Birds Houseplants I helped beta test the first seed swap
Region: Nebraska Keeper of Poultry Rabbit Keeper Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Procrastinator Garden Ideas: Level 2
Chillybean
Aug 26, 2015 1:04 PM CST
If we could type it in, I think that would be best. We can say whatever region, USA when they are in large areas, but not the whole country/continent. I read and learn about US natives, but I think I have seen articles about efforts in other countries to restore the plants native to them. Some plants have been naturalized so long in areas that many assume they are native.
Name: Kim
Iowa (Zone 5a)
I kill ornamentals... on purpose.
Enjoys or suffers cold winters Spiders! Critters Allowed Birds Houseplants I helped beta test the first seed swap
Region: Nebraska Keeper of Poultry Rabbit Keeper Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Procrastinator Garden Ideas: Level 2
Chillybean
Aug 26, 2015 1:08 PM CST
There are so many sources and I for one wouldn't mind using them to include the info here. I was going to say Wikipedia, but I recognize it is not always accurate. I have several guides (Peterson, for one) that tell you if it is native or alien and often shares where it originated.
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Image
dave
Aug 26, 2015 1:36 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

We've discussed this a few times in the past.

I'm not opposed to having it in the database and I think it could be somewhat useful, but the native plants issue brings along with it invasive plant discussions which brings emotions into the mix. Some people are unable to discuss invasive plants without resorting to emotionally charged arguments and that's bad for a community. Thankfully we have evaded that problem here at ATP and I want it to remain that way.

So, if we do add this into the database, you'd have to know that I'll pull it back out later if it becomes a problem.
Name: Deb
Pacific Northwest (Zone 8b)
Region: Pacific Northwest Organic Gardener Herbs Dragonflies Dog Lover Keeper of Poultry
Birds Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Sages Plant Identifier
Image
Bonehead
Aug 26, 2015 1:45 PM CST
My 'Plants of the Pacific NW' field book includes both native plants and those which are introduced non-native invasives, I suppose as a means to ID what might be found out in the wilds. We had a previous discussion about listing invasives as a checkbox in the database, but that became too confusing because what might be invasive in one region may be perfectly behaved in another. It was decided to keep that information in the comments. Might be the same can of worms with natives - how far back does one go? I include native information in the comments section, and try to clarify that a certain plant is native IN my region as opposed to native TO my region, two very different meanings to me. I do agree that place of origin would be helpful in the database - to more easily determine if it is a native in your area, to have a better idea of the plant needs, and for a bit of history.
I want to live in a world where the chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
Name: Deb
Pacific Northwest (Zone 8b)
Region: Pacific Northwest Organic Gardener Herbs Dragonflies Dog Lover Keeper of Poultry
Birds Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Sages Plant Identifier
Image
Bonehead
Aug 26, 2015 1:46 PM CST
Cross posted with Dave. I like his idea, and agree that folks can get on their soapbox about invasives.
I want to live in a world where the chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
Image
needrain
Aug 26, 2015 2:08 PM CST
Could it be set up where the options only included 'native' 'introduced' 'origin' or something along those lines?

I'd hate to see it turn into a pro and con area for the discussion of invasive plants. If it's an introduced plant, then anyone interested can research it's invasive aspect for their locale. I'd posit that native plants can be invasive as well. Sometimes invasiveness depends on conditions.
Donald
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
Image
eclayne
Aug 26, 2015 3:37 PM CST

Plants Admin

Noting where a plant is introduced can create some pretty long lists. Here is the Distribution list for New England Aster (Symphyotrichum novae-angliae) Copied from the COL.
http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/details/species/id/07ffd8...
Distribution: 7 - Northern America, 75 - Northeastern U.S.A., New Jersey (NWJ), New Jersey (NWJ-OO); 1 - Europe, 13 - Southeastern Europe, Bulgaria (BUL), Bulgaria (BUL-OO); 1 - Europe, 11 - Middle Europe, Belgium (BGM), Belgium (BGM-BE); 1 - Europe, 11 - Middle Europe, Germany (GER), Germany (GER-OO); 7 - Northern America, 73 - Northwestern U.S.A., Washington (WAS), Washington (WAS-OO); 7 - Northern America, 76 - Southwestern U.S.A., California (CAL), California (CAL-OO); 7 - Northern America, 74 - North-Central U.S.A., Kansas (KAN), Kansas (KAN-OO); 7 - Northern America, 75 - Northeastern U.S.A., New York (NWY), New York (NWY-OO); 5 - Australasia, 51 - New Zealand, ; 1 - Europe, 11 - Middle Europe, Belgium (BGM), ; 7 - Northern America, 73 - Northwestern U.S.A., Oregon (ORE), Oregon (ORE-OO); 7 - Northern America, 75 - Northeastern U.S.A., Ohio (OHI), Ohio (OHI-OO); 1 - Europe, 11 - Middle Europe, Belgium (BGM), Luxembourg (BGM-LU); 7 - Northern America, 75 - Northeastern U.S.A., Masachusettes (MAS), Masachusettes (MAS-OO); 7 - Northern America, 73 - Northwestern U.S.A., Colorado (COL), Colorado (COL-OO); 1 - Europe, 13 - Southeastern Europe, Romania (ROM), Romania (ROM-OO); 7 - Northern America, 71 - Western Canada, Manitoba (MAN), Manitoba (MAN-OO); 7 - Northern America, 74 - North-Central U.S.A., Wisconsin (WIS), Wisconsin (WIS-OO); 7 - Northern America, 75 - Northeastern U.S.A., Rhode I. (RHO), Rhode I. (RHO-OO); 1 - Europe, 12 - Southwestern Europe, France (FRA), Channel Is. (FRA-CI); 7 - Northern America, 74 - North-Central U.S.A., Oklahoma (OKL), Oklahoma (OKL-OO); 1 - Europe, 10 - Northern Europe, Sweden (SWE), Sweden (SWE-OO); 7 - Northern America, 78 - Southeastern U.S.A., Arkansas (ARK), Arkansas (ARK-OO); 1 - Europe, 13 - Southeastern Europe, Italy (ITA), ; 1 - Europe, 11 - Middle Europe, Austria (AUT), Liechtenstein (AUT-LI); 3 - Asia-Temperate, 33 - Caucasus, Transcaucasus (TCS), Georgia (TCS-GR); 1 - Europe, 11 - Middle Europe, Switzerland (SWI), Switzerland (SWI-OO); 7 - Northern America, 74 - North-Central U.S.A., Missouri (MSO), Missouri (MSO-OO); 1 - Europe, 11 - Middle Europe, Czechoslovakia (CZE), ; 7 - Northern America, 78 - Southeastern U.S.A., South Carolina (SCA), South Carolina (SCA-OO); 7 - Northern America, 78 - Southeastern U.S.A., North Carolina (NCA), North Carolina (NCA-OO); 7 - Northern America, 72 - Eastern Canada, Québec (QUE), Québec (QUE-OO); 7 - Northern America, 71 - Western Canada, British Columbia (BRC), British Columbia (BRC-OO); 7 - Northern America, 72 - Eastern Canada, ; 7 - Northern America, 74 - North-Central U.S.A., South Dakota (SDA), South Dakota (SDA-OO); 7 - Northern America, 75 - Northeastern U.S.A., Indiana (INI), Indiana (INI-OO); 1 - Europe, 11 - Middle Europe, Netherlands (NET), Netherlands (NET-OO); 7 - Northern America, 78 - Southeastern U.S.A., District of Columbia (WDC), District of Columbia (WDC-OO); 7 - Northern America, 75 - Northeastern U.S.A., Michigan (MIC), Michigan (MIC-OO); 1 - Europe, 11 - Middle Europe, Poland (POL), Poland (POL-OO); 7 - Northern America, 77 - South-Central U.S.A., New Mexico (NWM), New Mexico (NWM-OO); 1 - Europe, 12 - Southwestern Europe, France (FRA), Monaco (FRA-MO); 7 - Northern America, 78 - Southeastern U.S.A., ; 7 - Northern America, 75 - Northeastern U.S.A., West Virginia (WVA), West Virginia (WVA-OO); 7 - Northern America, 75 - Northeastern U.S.A., Vermont (VER), Vermont (VER-OO); 1 - Europe, 12 - Southwestern Europe, France (FRA), France (FRA-FR); 1 - Europe, 14 - Eastern Europe, Ukraine (UKR), Ukraine (UKR-UK); 1 - Europe, 11 - Middle Europe, Austria (AUT), ; 1 - Europe, 13 - Southeastern Europe, Yugoslavia (YUG), Slovenia (YUG-SL); 7 - Northern America, 72 - Eastern Canada, Nova Scotia (NSC), Nova Scotia (NSC-OO); 7 - Northern America, 73 - Northwestern U.S.A., Wyoming (WYO), Wyoming (WYO-OO); 7 - Northern America, 76 - Southwestern U.S.A., Utah (UTA), Utah (UTA-OO); 7 - Northern America, 72 - Eastern Canada, New Brunswick (NBR), New Brunswick (NBR-OO); 7 - Northern America, 78 - Southeastern U.S.A., Delaware (DEL), Delaware (DEL-OO); 7 - Northern America, 75 - Northeastern U.S.A., Maine (MAI), Maine (MAI-OO); 7 - Northern America, 74 - North-Central U.S.A., Nebraska (NEB), Nebraska (NEB-OO); 1 - Europe, 14 - Eastern Europe, Baltic States (BLT), Estonia (BLT-ES); 7 - Northern America, 74 - North-Central U.S.A., Iowa (IOW), Iowa (IOW-OO); 1 - Europe, 10 - Northern Europe, Norway (NOR), Norway (NOR-OO); 7 - Northern America, 78 - Southeastern U.S.A., Maryland (MRY), Maryland (MRY-OO); 7 - Northern America, 78 - Southeastern U.S.A., Virginia (VRG), Virginia (VRG-OO); 1 - Europe, 14 - Eastern Europe, Ukraine (UKR), Moldova (UKR-MO); 7 - Northern America, 78 - Southeastern U.S.A., Alabama (ALA), Alabama (ALA-OO); 7 - Northern America, 74 - North-Central U.S.A., Minnesota (MIN), Minnesota (MIN-OO); 1 - Europe, 10 - Northern Europe, Great Britain (GRB), Great Britain (GRB-OO); 7 - Northern America, 74 - North-Central U.S.A., Illinois (ILL), Illinois (ILL-OO); 1 - Europe, 14 - Eastern Europe, Krym (KRY), Krym (KRY-OO); 7 - Northern America, 73 - Northwestern U.S.A., Montana (MNT), Montana (MNT-OO); 1 - Europe, 11 - Middle Europe, Hungary (HUN), Hungary (HUN-OO); 7 - Northern America, 75 - Northeastern U.S.A., Connecticut (CNT), Connecticut (CNT-OO); 1 - Europe, 11 - Middle Europe, Austria (AUT), Austria (AUT-AU); 7 - Northern America, 75 - Northeastern U.S.A., Pennsylvania (PEN), Pennsylvania (PEN-OO); 4 - Asia-Tropical, 42 - Malesia, ; 7 - Northern America, 78 - Southeastern U.S.A., Kentucky (KTY), Kentucky (KTY-OO); 7 - Northern America, 78 - Southeastern U.S.A., Georgia (GEO), Georgia (GEO-OO); 1 - Europe, 11 - Middle Europe, Czechoslovakia (CZE), Czech Republic (CZE-CZ); 1 - Europe, 12 - Southwestern Europe, France (FRA), ; 7 - Northern America, 72 - Eastern Canada, Ontario (ONT), Ontario (ONT-OO); 7 - Northern America, 75 - Northeastern U.S.A., New Hampshire (NWH), New Hampshire (NWH-OO); 7 - Northern America, 75 - Northeastern U.S.A., ; 7 - Northern America, 78 - Southeastern U.S.A., Mississippi (MSI), Mississippi (MSI-OO); 7 - Northern America, 74 - North-Central U.S.A., North Dakota (NDA), North Dakota (NDA-OO); 7 - Northern America, 78 - Southeastern U.S.A., Tennessee (TEN), Tennessee (TEN-OO); 1 - Europe, 10 - Northern Europe, Denmark (DEN), Denmark (DEN-OO);
Evan
Name: Kim
Iowa (Zone 5a)
I kill ornamentals... on purpose.
Enjoys or suffers cold winters Spiders! Critters Allowed Birds Houseplants I helped beta test the first seed swap
Region: Nebraska Keeper of Poultry Rabbit Keeper Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Procrastinator Garden Ideas: Level 2
Chillybean
Aug 26, 2015 4:42 PM CST
Bonehead said: I include native information in the comments section, and try to clarify that a certain plant is native IN my region as opposed to native TO my region, two very different meanings to me. I do agree that place of origin would be helpful in the database - to more easily determine if it is a native in your area, to have a better idea of the plant needs, and for a bit of history.


Could you explain this, In versus To? I tend to use them interchangeably.

"how far back does one go?"
How about as far back as the USDA? That could be a guide, maybe. At least for North American plants.

I understand about well behaved in one area, but not so much in another. One example is the California Poppy. Someone gave me seeds, so I planted them. Later I read something that they can be very aggressive outside of its native range. I yanked them up even before the first growing season completed. Haven't seen any since. But I do have some aggressive native to Iowa plants that I let roam. We have the space Yet, for many with smaller areas, this would a concern. One I need to be sensitive to when I leave comments and want to do a better job of this.

Today, there was an interesting plant that came up as a random plant. I was curious where it came from, but would have to search outside of the site. Yes, it can easily be done, but I was thinking it would be nice if I could see that here at a glance. Knowing the native status is important to me, even before looking into growing conditions. For the most part, I believe I have learned a lot in the last couple of years, but there are still some surprises.

I can understand people can get heated about issues and this is not anything I want. I do appreciate the willingness to discuss this.
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
Image
needrain
Aug 26, 2015 5:00 PM CST
Wow, Evan. Is the use of 'introduced' in this context indicating the plant has adapted and growing and reproducing on its own in competition or conjunction with non-introduced flora?
Donald
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
Image
eclayne
Aug 26, 2015 7:10 PM CST

Plants Admin

I believe so Donald. Distribution includes both native and introduced feral plants.
Evan
Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Tip Photographer Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Hibiscus
Image
Horntoad
Aug 26, 2015 8:31 PM CST
Nativity opens a lot of problems.
One problem is how long the list can be as Evan pointed out. Symphyotrichum lanceolatum is shown to be native to all of the Lower 48 states as well a Canada. Listing them all would create a long list.
Another problem is, going to be how you define Native. One common definition for a US native is a plant that was growing in a location before Europeans arrived. But others have argued that Native Americans were using plants and moved them to different location long before Europeans arrive so there is no way to know if a particular plant is truly native to that location.
There is also the problem of what source do you use to determine nativity? Kim you mentioned USDA, but while researching Hibiscus I found that the USDA listed Hibiscus bifurcatus as native to Florida, but gave no county level info. Biotia of North America (another source I use) does not even show H. bifurcatus as even growing in the US, much less native. I contacted someone in Florida that works with natives of that state and he told me he knows of no records of it ever being recorded in Florida.
Then there is the problem of cultivars. Cultivars are created by people so, I do not see how they can be considered native. I have a Lonicera sempervirens 'Major Wheeler'. While L. sempervirens is a native, I do not consider 'Major Wheeler' a native, but nurseries jumping on the native bandwagon will sell it and other cultivars as native. I guarantee that someone will buy on these plants and list it in the database as a native.
wildflowersoftexas.com
texasnatureonline.com


Name: Deb
Pacific Northwest (Zone 8b)
Region: Pacific Northwest Organic Gardener Herbs Dragonflies Dog Lover Keeper of Poultry
Birds Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Sages Plant Identifier
Image
Bonehead
Aug 26, 2015 8:39 PM CST
Chilly, here's my read on "in" or "to," using a local example. Douglas fir is a native tree found in Alaska, British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, and California (that I know of, perhaps other states as well). I am comfortable stating that it is native IN my home state of Washington and IN the Pacific Northwest region, which does not limit it being native in other places. If I were to say it was native TO the PNW, that implies (to me) that it originated somewhere in this region - which likely is true in this example, but I don't have any specific source to back that up.

And as Eclayn so nicely illustrates, there are many plants which have naturalized in parts of the world that may be quite different from their point of origin. I don't know at what point a naturalized plant becomes native, or if that ever happens. I also find it rather difficult to locate reliable information on plant origins. Perhaps someone can guide me to a good website for that information?

I want to live in a world where the chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
Name: Kim
Iowa (Zone 5a)
I kill ornamentals... on purpose.
Enjoys or suffers cold winters Spiders! Critters Allowed Birds Houseplants I helped beta test the first seed swap
Region: Nebraska Keeper of Poultry Rabbit Keeper Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Procrastinator Garden Ideas: Level 2
Chillybean
Aug 27, 2015 9:19 AM CST
"One problem is how long the list can be as Evan pointed out. Symphyotrichum lanceolatum is shown to be native to all of the Lower 48 states as well a Canada. Listing them all would create a long list."

My idea was to keep it to country down to region, at most. (But even that needs to have consistency. People call different sets of states different things.) It would clutter the database to list every state/province. Just put enough to give someone a start, if they want to follow through with more research.

Again, I would like to avoid naturalized. If you talk to native enthusiasts, they would say that naturalized cannot become native. I have started viewing the dandelion (and others) more favourably, but I still will not call it a US native.

About cultivars, the "parent" (is that the correct term?) was native to somewhere. I wish I could remember what I looked at some days ago in the Database, but it noted that the plant information was true for all of that species. For historical purposes, is there a way to include this within the cultivars?

I have searched where certain plants came from, there are times when some are uncertain, such as the Amaranth we get popping up everywhere. A simple "Unknown" might be a good thing to place there. Maybe down the road, more information about it will be available.

About websites... I've been using Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center's site. I like how it is set up...
Here is the link to Plaina Yucca. Scroll down to Distribution to see how they have it.
http://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=YUGL

Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Image
dave
Aug 27, 2015 9:22 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

I think that rather than maintaining a huge pulldown menu or list of checkboxes, it might be best to simply give a text field where people can type whatever they want.

"Native to" with a line for you to type what you want. You can then type "China" or "Southeast United States" or whatever. It would have a 255 character limit.
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
Image
flaflwrgrl
Aug 28, 2015 7:03 PM CST
Horntoad said:Nativity opens a lot of problems.
One problem is how long the list can be as Evan pointed out. Symphyotrichum lanceolatum is shown to be native to all of the Lower 48 states as well a Canada. Listing them all would create a long list.
Another problem is, going to be how you define Native. One common definition for a US native is a plant that was growing in a location before Europeans arrived. But others have argued that Native Americans were using plants and moved them to different location long before Europeans arrive so there is no way to know if a particular plant is truly native to that location.
There is also the problem of what source do you use to determine nativity? Kim you mentioned USDA, but while researching Hibiscus I found that the USDA listed Hibiscus bifurcatus as native to Florida, but gave no county level info. Biotia of North America (another source I use) does not even show H. bifurcatus as even growing in the US, much less native. I contacted someone in Florida that works with natives of that state and he told me he knows of no records of it ever being recorded in Florida.
Then there is the problem of cultivars. Cultivars are created by people so, I do not see how they can be considered native. I have a Lonicera sempervirens 'Major Wheeler'. While L. sempervirens is a native, I do not consider 'Major Wheeler' a native, but nurseries jumping on the native bandwagon will sell it and other cultivars as native. I guarantee that someone will buy on these plants and list it in the database as a native.


I agree. I don't see any way to do it that will not cause problems OR misinformation. Gee, it would be really nice but I see a big can of stinky worms.
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



« Garden.org Homepage
« Back to the top
« Forums List
« Plant Database forum
You must first create a username and login before you can reply to this thread.

Today's site banner is by ge1836 and is called "Pacific Blue Ice"