Lilies forum: Lily Germination

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Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
Image
Leftwood
Dec 31, 2010 3:13 AM CST
My first delayed hypogeal germinating seed germinated recently. These seed germinate and first produce a tiny bulb underground. Then, after a cold period, the new bulb sends leaves up the ensuing spring.

[Left]Lilium monadelphum collected in Georgia (west Asia)
[Right]Lilium monadelphum collected in Russia
Thumb of 2010-12-31/Leftwood/324e36 Thumb of 2010-12-31/Leftwood/fa0cb2

It is interesting how one grew a short "root" from the seed before initiating a bulb, while the other grew a "root" 4 times longer before beginning the process. The Caucasus mountains in Georgia (where the seed was collected) are drier than the Russian counterpart. A likely reason for the difference, as in a drier climate the seed would need to start out deeper for ample moisture.

Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
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dellac
Dec 10, 2012 9:06 PM CST
Digging up old threads again :biggrin:

I'm fascinated with L.monadelphum and this observation. Could we have an update? How have the seedlings developed over the last two years? Have you noted any other differences in the Georgian v's Russian provenances?
Name: Calin
Weston-super-mare UK (Zone 7b)
Bulbs Lilies Plant and/or Seed Trader
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fixpix
Dec 12, 2012 12:55 AM CST
Wow, good 4 u Della.
I'm also wondering what happened to these little ones :)
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
Image
Leftwood
Dec 12, 2012 10:50 PM CST
Germinating Lilium monadelphum seed was the most fun, as they grew their initial tiny bulbs very quickly compared to other hypogeal germinating species I have tried. And those bulbs were the largest I've ever seen, too.

Unfortunately, as time progressed some were lost. I forget which one now, but pretty much all of one of the batches succumb. Starting seed in small bags (1.5 x 2.3 inches) like this is so much fun and educational, but more difficult to mediate conditions. I do have better luck in the long term planting directly into a soil medium in a pot. Not knowing and just hoping that seeds are progressing as they should unchecked underground might make you crazy, but I have so much other stuff going on that I hardly have time to think about it.

So anyway, the ones that lived put up their one leaf in 2011, but they only stayed for a month before retreating back underground. In 2012, one leaf each again, perhaps double the previous size, but still not as strong as I had hoped.

I don't think I know what the trick is with this species. Lilium sczovitsianum (L. monadelphum var. sczovitsianum) was one of the first species I grew from seed (circa 2002). I had one seed come up ( the following year, of course), and never had any problems with it. It took 7 years to bloom, but that could be considered normal. That was literally dumb luck, as I knew very little about lilies back then. I have another batch of L. monadelphum seed planted in 2004, doing fine (I suppose) in a gallon pot, but for two nonconsecutive seasons, they have simply decided not to produce leaves at all. They are in a raised seedling bed now. The bulbs looked healthy when I planted them...
Name: Calin
Weston-super-mare UK (Zone 7b)
Bulbs Lilies Plant and/or Seed Trader
Image
fixpix
Dec 13, 2012 12:49 AM CST
Geez,
I never thought it would be that difficult/hazardous!
I was thinking yesterday about buying some Lilium seeds (monadelphum, lederbourii, pomponium, pyrenaicum, jankae, pardalinum) but at 3-4 EUR/8 or 10 seeds...sounds like a huge investment, especially if chances are that low.
And I am not expert at lilium seed germination!
Oh,well...
Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
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gwhizz
Dec 13, 2012 3:45 AM CST
I know Rodrigos at Glenbrook is growing 'monadelphum', without too much drama.. [re-lily register] Ive been out 2 yrs in a row to see[and photograph] it blooming from a 6 inch pot, with a few stragglers following.. Thumbs up
lily freaks are not geeks!
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
Image
Leftwood
Dec 13, 2012 9:41 AM CST
I didn't mean to discourage you, Calin! L. monadelphum turned out to be the easiest to germinate of all!
And they all did well for 2-3 months. Then the vermiculite they were in seemed to be getting too dry and I gave them some water, and that's when some began to rot. I think from seed, L. monadelphum and L. martagon are the easiest of all the hypogeal germinating seed that I have worked with.

What confuses me is the aftercare once planted in a pot and after the first seed bulb production. As I mentioned, the first time when I didn't know much about lilies it grew well all the time. Unfortunately, I didn't keep very good records back then, and I don't think I ever did anything special. Yet, with the second batch, why am I having setbacks? This is what is baffling me. Also reiterating, I think planting the seed directly in a pot is a better way to go, rather than in a baggie.

Germination modes:
L. monadelphum - DH
L. ledebourii - DH
L. pomponium - IE or DE
L. pyrenaicum - DE, germinate low temperature: 60F(15C)
L. jankae - DH or DE?
L. pardalinum - H. germinate low temperature: 50-55F (10-13C). This one is more difficult and requires reading up on it if you don't have natural conditions to suit its needs. A leaf should emerge 1-6 weeks after germination, but sometimes not.

I=immediate
D=delayed
E=epigeal
H=hypogeal
for definitions, see here
http://www.the-genus-lilium.com/germination.htm
This Lilium website is fairly good, but does have some inaccuracies. However, anything written by Darm Crook is true.

I have tried seed of everything you list, except L. ledebourii. With my limited experience:
--- the most difficult to germinate was L. jankae.
--- the most difficult to keep going once germinated was L. pardalinum because I just don't have the right conditions for it.
--- L. pyrenaicum took 3 years (outside conditions) to emerge with a leaf.
--- L. monadelphum was the easiest to germinate.
--- L. pomponium was easy with one seed source, unsuccessful with a different seed source.

-
I am always amazed by how well foreigners, and especially Europeans, speak English. Calin, you have a very good command of the language. Sometimes I have a harder time understanding Anthony with his Australian dialect then I do you! Whistling
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Image
dellac
Dec 14, 2012 12:34 AM CST
Three years! Damn... I had L. pyrenaicum seed planted years ago that I may just have given up too soon on.....

Maybe I'll have to go to the show party at Glenbrook Green Grin! I haven't really cracked the culture of the monadelphum-szovitsianum group either. I have one little L.szovitsianum bulb left out of a group that were doing fantastically and seemed just a year off flowering when I lifted them to move house. It makes just one leaf a year... doesn't die on me and doesn't make any progress either!

I have new L.szovitsianum seed now and am going to try again, so thanks for the tip of going with outdoor planting from the start. I'm still looking for L. monadelphum, if anyone knows of a source.

Calin, I've just joined the RHS Lily Group, and am hoping to be lucky and find some of the seeds I'm looking for in their seed distribution list. You may not be guaranteed of getting what you want, but I think it's a cheaper first option than the prices you listed?
Name: Calin
Weston-super-mare UK (Zone 7b)
Bulbs Lilies Plant and/or Seed Trader
Image
fixpix
Dec 14, 2012 1:14 AM CST
Wow Rick, very good info on Lilium seeds.
I wish I was that thorough. Sometimes all I get to do is write down the date I sow seeds...after that I just get lazy and go with the flow.
I never check days to germination, temp, etc.

So far I think I tried L. martagon (pink and white) and I had pretty good germination. This spring I planted them out in the garden and all through the drought I kept watering them. Most leaves stayed green until first snow that covered them.
I hope they survive, as the bulbs were very small.

And I also got some L. formosanum (spelling?) from the US and I had about 8-9 small bulbs that I aslo planted in the garden.

And I got L. phillipense seeds sown about a month ago. Looks like, if successful, I'll have to keep these in a pot?

And some tiny L. canadense I got in a trade. Planted them out in the garden in late fall so... we'll see in spring!

And I got some bulbs that I am sure are "species" from Sweden but again, as I transplanted them in mid-summer, leaves died down to the ground and nothing else happened since. Again, surprises in spring? I hope so.

Looks like I got some stuff going on!

Thanks for the comments about my English. But we haven't yet had a real conversation :)
As it happens, I used to be and English teacher - a profession that took me to Asia (S Korea, China and Taiwan) but that's long ago!

Della... it would be a good idea. That lily group.
But as I understand it, me, with very few or non-existant seeds to donate, I'd be at the bottom of the list Smiling
But who knows? Maybe I'll surprise myself with a membership...

Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
Image
Leftwood
Dec 14, 2012 9:04 PM CST
Della, I didn't mean planting L. monadelphum/szovitsianum should necessarily be started outside (although not a bad idea). Only that I think planting directly into a medium that it will grow in for successive years is better than starting in a baggy. Myself, I still plant my hypogeal germinating seed in the fall in pots inside the house so I can get a year jump on growth.

Calin, most of that information I listed was not from me, but from others. I am a serious hoarder of information and data, and I gather it up where ever I find it. Take a look at what it says under my avatar here:
http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=750.msg20795#msg20795
And you will never be sorry if you take the time to record various data about your own planting/experimenting. One of the simplest and easiest things you can do is date everything!

L. formosanum is correct.
L. philippinense is the correct spelling. They have been hardy outside for me in USDA zone 4. They should be fine for you in the ground, or in a pot sunk into the ground for the winter.
Don't feel too bad if L. canadense does not emerge next spring. Treat them normally, and they will probably come up in 2014. L. canadense seedlings have been a little fickle for me, probably because of my less than stellar care, and they have skipped a year of growth while the bulbs below the surface were still healthy.
You do have a lot going on!

Regarding your English, Calin, besides the natural flow of your sentence structure, I am really impressed by your knowledge of our slang and idioms. So if your profession took you to those places long ago, are you as young as your avatar leads us to believe? (When you placed it on the forum a few days ago, I thought: the women here will be swooning... nodding )

Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
Image
gwhizz
Dec 14, 2012 9:55 PM CST
I dont know, Rick.! : Confused I thought they would have gone for my little cutie'avatar' Hilarious!
lily freaks are not geeks!
Lincoln, NE
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Miniature Gardening Butterflies
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Moby
Dec 15, 2012 8:35 AM CST
You're all adorable. Lovey dubby
Where are we going, and why am I in this hand-basket?
Name: Calin
Weston-super-mare UK (Zone 7b)
Bulbs Lilies Plant and/or Seed Trader
Image
fixpix
Dec 16, 2012 10:08 AM CST
Rolling on the floor laughing x 1000

OK. Here's a fresh one
Thumb of 2012-12-16/fixpix/71acd1

I'm 37.

I do have stuff going on.
Good to know L. philippinense WILL do fine in my garden... but first I need to see some germination.
I just moved seed pot to the fridge...according to some info I got online.
Sowed, in the room for a month, in the fridge for another and then out at 5-10 C for germination.

Piece of cake!

Anthony... who could compete with that "cutie"?

Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
Image
Leftwood
Dec 16, 2012 8:29 PM CST
( Rolling on the floor laughing x1000) x Lovey dubby

That would be an interesting hybrid...


You fit right in, here on the forum, Calin.


Do keep us (especially ME Whistling ) informed on your L. philippinense results. L. formosanum and philippinense are very closely related. I've germinated L. formosanum var. pricei seed a few times, and they always do best after a cold period, but I don't know if they germinated in cool (5-10C) or warm (21C) as it was always outside. I haven't worked with L. philippinense seed. I received my L. philippinense as bulblets from a fellow North American Rock Garden Society (NARGS) member who lives on the coast of Alaska near Cordova.

Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
Image
gwhizz
Dec 17, 2012 1:57 AM CST
Thats actually me , Calin Hilarious!
lily freaks are not geeks!
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Image
dellac
Dec 17, 2012 6:39 AM CST
Calin, you look remarkably similar to someone I know with Macedonian heritage! (I say that in ignorance of any patriotic/cultural conflagrations it may spark! >>) Contributors are entitled to more packets of seed from the distribution list, but I think everyone has a fair chance of getting something they're after?

The conditions here make outside planting a possibility I think, Rick. Certainlly for the warm phase. Even if our summer is erratic from day to day and we complain about the crazy weather. We don't have to contend with winter freezes - though L. szovitsianum/L. monadelphum might appreciate a reliable blanket of winter snow!? I don't have refrigeration space for vernalising many lily seedlings planted in pots, but maybe one margarine-sized container would find a spot. Just as long as my budding botanists don't mistake it for gelato! (And gelato containers here do make very tempting lily seedling pots! Not too small, not too big, rectangular and deep!)
Name: Calin
Weston-super-mare UK (Zone 7b)
Bulbs Lilies Plant and/or Seed Trader
Image
fixpix
Dec 17, 2012 7:37 AM CST
LOL Della, no offense taken :)
But I was hoping you'd say I look like X Hollywood actor...

Weird weather. We had freezing temps and 25 cm snow for a week, then it warmed up, it started to rain and now all snow is gone.
I wish this was it, but only in March I can say "it's SPRING!"

Is there no Australian bulb society/group?
Or no group is needed to echange seeds and bulbs.

Like I said in another thread, I'd love to start such a group here in Romania.
I don't think there is one.
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Image
dellac
Dec 17, 2012 8:32 AM CST
Well, I consider your lookalike here very handsome - hollywood can't have all the talent!

There used to be an Australian Lilium Society, but unless something changed while I've been living under my rock, there are now just local groups scattered around the nation. I think there are three here in the state of Tasmania. Maybe Anthony can correct me. The Northwest Tasmanian Lilium Society participates in the RHS Lily Group and North American seed distribution lists and then has their own mini distribution among members. I think most folk who participate end up with two or more packets of seed. Of course there's always seed available through the society's own seed pool, that members contribute to and buy from.

I'd be surprised if there aren't local lily groups around much of Europe, but then if there isn't one near you, it can always start with one person and a bit of support! Maybe the RHS lily group is a good way to find other Romanian lily growers? Good luck Thumbs up
Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
Image
gwhizz
Dec 17, 2012 8:47 PM CST
Yahoo is a good worldwide one I tip my hat to you.
lily freaks are not geeks!
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
Image
Leftwood
Dec 17, 2012 10:34 PM CST
Icelandic elves live under rocks, too.

I think you're in good company, Della. Smiling

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