Lilies forum: Harlequin Hybrids

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Name: Michael Norberry
Arcata, CA Zone 9 or 17 suns (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Region: California Seed Starter Ponds
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mnorberry
Apr 26, 2011 3:33 PM CST
At my last Rose Society Meeting, one of our members came up to me and gave me several Lily bulbs. She said they are Harlequim Hybrids that come in several colors. Old strain. Does anyone grow these?
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
Apr 26, 2011 4:18 PM CST

Moderator

I purchased Harlequin Hybrids (Asiatics) from McClure and Zimmerman (M-Z bulb). Six of them. They are all 1b-c to 1c in orientation, all different in one way or another, mostly in spotting; and all yellow or orange.

Here is one of them:

Thumb of 2011-04-26/pardalinum/2fb872
Name: Michael Norberry
Arcata, CA Zone 9 or 17 suns (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Region: California Seed Starter Ponds
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mnorberry
Apr 27, 2011 11:26 AM CST
Thanks
Name: Michael Norberry
Arcata, CA Zone 9 or 17 suns (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Region: California Seed Starter Ponds
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mnorberry
May 3, 2011 7:15 PM CST
Pard: Does Harlequin produces bulbil like Tiger Lilies (tigrinum)?
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
May 3, 2011 7:44 PM CST

Moderator

Mike, I have not seen bulbils on any of my Harlequin hybrids.
Name: Michael Norberry
Arcata, CA Zone 9 or 17 suns (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Region: California Seed Starter Ponds
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mnorberry
Jun 24, 2011 9:23 PM CST
Pard: Connie
Was out looking at Harlequin today, It looks like they are forming bulbils on the stems.
Thumb of 2011-06-25/mnorberry/d38428
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
Jun 24, 2011 11:37 PM CST

Moderator

I guess that is possible. According to the Lily Register the Harlequin Hybrids are selections from the Mid-Century Hybrids. The Mid-Century Hybrids are:

L. tigrinum x L. x hollandicum
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Dec 12, 2013 9:51 AM CST
It seems there are two "kinds" of Harlequin Hybrids.

1 - the type discussed here, with the Mid-Century background.

2 - the modern type that Anthony shows with ancestry of L. davidii and L. cernuum. This type really proves L. cernuum's value in breeding: it has many (and "mysterious") color genes.

Lily (Lilium 'Harlequin Hybrids')

Both are mentioned (sort of) in the Lily Registry here:

Thumb of 2013-12-12/Leftwood/b951d2

Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Dec 12, 2013 12:55 PM CST
Interesting stuff. Sounds like Mike is lucky with getting some of the 'older more colorful group'. As I understand it, the original work leading up to Harlequins was done by Dr. C. F. Patterson, head of the Dept. of Horticulture at the University of Saskatchewan in Canada. According to 1969 book of Jan de graaff's, this group was obtained by intercrossing L. tigrinum, L. cernuum, L. davidii and it's variety Maxwill. ( by Dr. Patterson).

Then, (I'll quote his book here): "In order to see what could be achieved along similar, although somewhat different lines, we crossed L. cernuum with various Mid-Century Hybrids and have obtained a similar, vigorous group of complicated hybrids, introduced as the Harlequin Strain".

Now, somewhere, I've read that some of Dr. Patterson's original group material was also incorporated in the development of the Mid-Century Group. I'll look for that tonight. History of cultivar development during this time frame is very interesting to me because most of the time it's poorly documented or not documented at all. It's the evidence that a lot of stuff went on but very little documented proof of it.

It sounds like mike could have a lot of fun crossing these.
[Last edited by Roosterlorn - Dec 12, 2013 12:59 PM (+)]
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Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Dec 12, 2013 10:39 PM CST
First, I did not find any documentation (yet) that would indicate Dr. Patterson's crosses were incorporated into the Mid-Century pool prior to de Graaff's Harlequin project, even though it seems every 'Tom, Dick and Harry' Asiatic and Asiatic hybrid available were introduced at various stages of the lengthy Mid-Century project. Therefore it would seem, by default, that both Dr. Patterson's stock and de Graaff's Mid-Century group had a lot of ancestry in common.

As noted in my previous post, Dr. Patterson developed the first Harlequins by intercrossing L. tigrinum, L. cernuum, L. davidii var. Maxwill. Dr. Patterson also crossed L. davidii var. willmottiae and L. cernuum. The pollen from this cross was used on various seed parents such as L. davidii 'Oriole and several Stenographer clones and that offspring showed a high degree of virus resistance. I should note here that in all of my old books and publications these are referred to as Patterson Harlequins, never the de Graaff Harlequins. What Jan de Graaff did was cross some selected Mid-Century stock with L. cernuum and registered the cross as Harlequin. The de Graaff Harlequins were very similar to the Patterson Harlequins--but they were not as virus resistant. It was reported that nearly an entire field Mid-Century parent stock was lost and only those with the highest L. davidii background survived. Most Harlequins produced by Oregon Bulb commercially at some point were from crossing the much more virus resistant Edith Cecilia with Lemon Queen, both of these being the offspring of L. davidii var. willmottiae and L. cernuum crosses. This answers the last question in the registry definition and, yes, there were 'two' Harlequins.

The fact that Jan de Graaff and the Oregon Bulb Farm registered Harlequin was construed be some people at the time as a 'race to recognition' by the larger and more powerful. But it reality, Dr. Patterson was considerably involved with the Harlequin work at Oregon Bulb. After all, it was only natural that Oregon Bulb would take up the project because they had vast resources in land, people and monies to carry out the project. And, they had a man who's philosophy was 'carpet bomb' fields full of seedlings when you've got the room.

When I looked through a lot of these old publications, it's obvious many records are incomplete. And there are discrepancies and contradictions from one author to another. But that's what makes it all so interesting to me (the stuff that's not in the books).

















Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Dec 13, 2013 6:00 PM CST
Wow, thanks a lot, Lorn. That must have taken a lot of digging, and we all appreciate it!

I've never heard of L. davidii var. Maxwill. In fact I had just assumed you meant willmottiae, until you used willmottiae in the same paragraph. Goolgling finds that it was used synonymously with willmottiae, but there is also a cultivar:
'Maxwill' (Skinner, 1932) - to 220cm, with 30 flowers or more. Flower is orange-red with a few dots.

I also assume virus "resistance", is virus tolerance.
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Dec 13, 2013 11:51 PM CST
Yes, virus tolerance--I have a bad habit of using the term interchangeably frequently. Thanks!

I'm quite sure we'll even be able to tell with a great deal of certainty what generation Harlequin Mike has once we see pictures of the flower head for length and height and tightness and compare pedicel length, etc. Mike's Harlequin's and the way he got them inspires me! It's almost the same as me getting that big box of lilies from a garden of an estate sale that was brought to me!

Another interesting aspect is that when I say that there's a lot of information lacking or not well documented, etc. it doesn't necessarily mean that information was poorly kept or infer sloppy work by the growers like Oregon Bulb. One has to look at it with a viewpoint that records are lost or they did not survive over time, much the same way as cultivars are lost over time due to events of time. And, sometimes records don't get updated either, when maybe the should be. A good example of that is the Lily Registry definition with Harlequin. Another is the Lily Registry definition of Mid-Century where the parent definition was recorded as L. tigrinum X L. hollandicum. That's not the end of it, nor is it necessarily correct, neither. More work. was done to get to the final version of Mid-Century. First, according to de Graaff's flow chart, it was L. hollandicum X L. tigrinum ( L. hollandicum being the first European lily brought into the gene pool). L. hollandicum was renamed 'umbtig' because there was an American species by that name. The next step was 'umbtig' X Alice Wilson, then Alice Wilson X 'unbtig' became the final version of Mid-Century. Alice Wilson was a named variety grown in Europe resulting from (L. dauricum X L. concolor) X L. X maculatum early on and that was reintroduced into the bloodline of the final version. I have omitted some steps for simplicity, here.

So, even when we look to the Lily Registry we have to do so with an open mind as well with the understanding there is likely a whole lot more to the story than can be described in just a few words. That goes for any reference books, articles and any document as well. It all makes a person wonder just exactly how many varieties of these older cultivars made it to market during any fifteen to twenty year period. Probably quite a few!

Now, fast forward. How many unnamed varieties produced during any cultivar project might there be in the marketplace today? Could this be just one reason for a thread like 'deceiving colors? Like you said, Rick, these posts prompt one to 'think'. That they do!



Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
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gwhizz
Dec 14, 2013 4:11 AM CST
Phew!- you blokes don't rest!- .. Doing a lot of breeding here in Tasmania[with these lilies],is a man named Neil Jordan. I saw potential in the lilies he grew and thought,'very good'.. Upon request many years ago, he supplied me with named bulbs[Luina-Lowana-Temma ][and recently Terracotta Warrior] and many pea sized 'offsets'..They all seem to follow a holographic/spotty trait! some are vigorous survivors, some are not..each bloom follows a certain exact size and form and the peppery dots are always exactly in the same area, regardless of colour[ although the lemon is a throw-out to rule]. 8-10 flowers on a good stem of a 3y/o bulb[in a pot] is not out of the ordinary.'Neil has around 20 on a ground planted bulb....If anybody would like some good 'named' pictures of these, just send me your email address and I'll send it to you..........Now I must upload some more!-Anthony
This is one of Neils other efforts


Thumb of 2013-12-14/gwhizz/318c1d

lily freaks are not geeks!
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
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dellac
Dec 16, 2013 12:38 AM CST
Lovely lily!

Anthony, could you upload a pic of Terracotta Warrior?

Neil's 'Harlequins' are called the Tas Township series - all of them named for a place in Tasmania with aboriginal naming. They are derived from Edith Cecilia and L. davidii varieties; also a few hardy asiatics that had survived well in Neil and Irene's garden for years. This includes a cultivar I have in my records as 'Sarina', from which I believe his stronger yellow hybrids derive. If you ever read this, Neil, please correct me!

Many years ago now Neil kindly gave me some seed from his Tas Township breeding line. One grandparent was Edith Cecilia. Two are flowering today:

Thumb of 2013-12-16/dellac/fd1738

These are first year flowering from scale of original seedlings. I've had many years of graceful bloom from the originals but only scaled them once.

I also have a few seedlings bred from this group of seedlings crossed with my own L. davidii hybrids - they are very distinctively 'Tas Township'; Neil's flower size, shape and spotting, and spare foliage on willowy bending stem are quite dominant. Less often prominent but still lingering in most progeny are the sloping shoulders - pedicels that hang down from the stem.

I'll try to post pics of them elsewhere (and edit link in if I do.)

Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
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gwhizz
Dec 16, 2013 4:03 AM CST
Can do better than that ,Della.. send you Neils last list...Yahoo Thumbs up
lily freaks are not geeks!
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Dec 16, 2013 7:28 AM CST
Unique eye catching foliage with that Terra Cotta Warrior.
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Jun 22, 2016 5:31 AM CST
Connie and Mike: Do you still have your Harlequins? I'd like to borrow some pollen before mine bloom this year.

2015 photos

Thumb of 2016-06-22/Roosterlorn/c22e4a


Thumb of 2016-06-22/Roosterlorn/f34ce8

Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
Jun 22, 2016 7:39 AM CST

Moderator

Sorry, Lorn, all six of mine are gonners.
Name: Tracey
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Tomato Heads Pollen collector Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Cat Lover
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Photography Seed Starter Region: Wisconsin
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magnolialover
Jun 22, 2016 8:34 PM CST

Moderator

How sad, Connie. And sad for you Lorn too to be without that pollen.
Tracey
Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
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gwhizz
Jun 30, 2016 5:19 PM CST
Lorn.. I may have ''The need for creating seed'' this year.. Ill see what I can rustle up... Glare
lily freaks are not geeks!

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