Daylilies forum: Seed Size and Ploidy

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Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
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DogsNDaylilies
Sep 30, 2015 5:35 PM CST
It has been said that seed sizes in tetraploid daylilies are larger because they contain twice the number of chromosomes. (This larger size also being a contributing factor to lower numbers of daylilies in a seedpod.) Why, then, are a couple of my diploid varieties producing larger seeds? Confused

Joan Senior, in particular, produces large seeds in small quantities in average- to large-sized seedpods.

Thoughts?
Name: Gerry Donahue
Pleasant Lake, IN (Zone 5b)
Hostas Garden Ideas: Master Level
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profesora
Sep 30, 2015 6:44 PM CST
I have not found that to be true.



Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
I helped beta test the first seed swap
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DogsNDaylilies
Sep 30, 2015 6:46 PM CST
Gerry...what do you mean? You haven't found seed size to correlate to ploidy, or you haven't found any large diploid seeds?
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Sep 30, 2015 11:10 PM CST
I expect that the way it works (nature, that is) is that in general tetraploid seeds are larger than diploid seeds. That would not mean that all tetraploid seeds are larger than all diploid seeds. What it would normally mean is that if one were to measure the size (or weight) of the average seed of a substantial number of diploid cultivars and of a substantial number of tetraploid cultivars then the average diploid seed size would be smaller than the average tetraploid size. The two average sizes would be different enough that one could state that they were significantly different but not necessarily that there was no overlap in sizes.
Maurice
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Oct 1, 2015 6:11 AM CST
Couldn't the larger seeds simply be an effect of fewer seeds in the pods? Seems like a pod only growing four seeds would be likely to have larger seeds than a pod growing thirty seeds.
Donald
Name: Gerry Donahue
Pleasant Lake, IN (Zone 5b)
Hostas Garden Ideas: Master Level
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profesora
Oct 1, 2015 6:47 AM CST
I have not found any large diploid seeds.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Oct 1, 2015 8:20 AM CST
needrain said:Couldn't the larger seeds simply be an effect of fewer seeds in the pods? Seems like a pod only growing four seeds would be likely to have larger seeds than a pod growing thirty seeds.

Yes, there can also be a relationship between the number of seeds and the size of the seeds.

The basic, perhaps most important part of the relationships involved in seed size would be that of the pod parent's genetics. A cultivar used as the pod parent will have a characteristic basic average seed size.

One factor that may change that average size of the seeds would be the plant's nutritional status, health, physical size, etc.

Another factor (factors are in no particular order) that may change the average size of the seeds would be the number of seeds in the pod.

Another factor that may change the average size of the seeds might be how many other pods were being developed at the same time on the same scape. Other pods may have stronger or weaker effects on each other depending on the stage of maturity/development of the other pods and their seeds and their exact position on the scape (for example, same branch or different branch, above or below other developing pods, etc.).

Moving up the scale from individual plants and scapes to more general factors, ploidy differences would also have a general effect on the average size of seeds.

All, or some of the factors might affect the average seed sizes of particular cultivars as pod parents and possibly, which factors had a larger influence on the seed sizes in specific pods might differ from pod to pod even on the same plant. Usually I would expect that ploidy, the specific pod cultivar and the number of seeds in a pod would have the most influence on seeds sizes.

The effect of ploidy should be relatively easy to check. One would need to examine the seed sizes of a few converted diploids (to tetraploids) and their original diploids versions growing in the same conditions. One might have a few quibbles since the pollen parents could not be the same, etc. If the diploid and tetraploid versions of each cultivar also had different average numbers of seeds per pod then one might have to weigh the seeds (as a group per pod) to see if the weights of seeds per pod were the same between diploids and tetraploids). Or one might have to compare the seed sizes and their numbers between diploids and tetraploids to see if there was only a simple relationship between seed number and seed size across ploidies. That is, was the relationship the same in both, for example when there were four seeds in a diploid pod they would be the same average size as when there were four seeds in a tetraploid pod and so on for all numbers of seeds.

Maurice

Weedyseedy
Oct 1, 2015 9:24 AM CST
I have Hemerocallis flava (or lilioasphedelus sp??) and H minor and seeds from both. Crossed. H minor has both the smallest seeds and the most in a pod while flava has large seeds but large pods as well. Flava as big as eggs-minor narrow little long pods but full. Seems they produce seeds according to their species-but I don't know what size of seeds their offspring would have as I procrastinate according to my back pain and may yet get ahead of something in the garden. Next year maybe. I have crossed Ed Murray with Orchid Corsage and then crossed the one lonely seedling with Wild Horses and the seeds seem to be almost as large as those from flava.I wonder if percentage of fertile pollen or gametes has something to do with number of seeds? Could that determine the numbers of tet seeds in a pod? Old Hortensia crossed with Red Rum produces pods packed with seeds. (But I forgot them this year and they fell on the ground!) So a casual observation might be that older dips produce more seeds.
Thumb of 2015-10-01/Weedyseedy/912d2f Hortensia


Thumb of 2015-10-01/Weedyseedy/b0475b flava

minor
Thumb of 2015-10-01/Weedyseedy/a18146

[Last edited by Weedyseedy - Oct 1, 2015 9:28 AM (+)]
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Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
I helped beta test the first seed swap
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DogsNDaylilies
Oct 1, 2015 4:00 PM CST
I might post an account soon of the seedpods I had with the most seeds.

Off the top of my head, I can comment that Jim's Pick, Starman's Quest, and Olallie Keith Stone's Sunset (all DIPS) all seem to produce large quantities of seeds. I would say Ruby Spider or So Many Stars might be the highest-seed-producing TET that I have hybridized with so far, but I'm not sure, I'd have to check.

Name: Gerry Donahue
Pleasant Lake, IN (Zone 5b)
Hostas Garden Ideas: Master Level
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profesora
Oct 1, 2015 5:45 PM CST
This would be a really good time to say that size does not matter, but that would be untrue.
[Last edited by profesora - Oct 1, 2015 8:54 PM (+)]
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Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
Region: Europe Cat Lover Daylilies Irises Dog Lover Hellebores
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Mayo62
Oct 2, 2015 3:05 AM CST
dóes it matter?
Do bigger seeds make bigger / better plants? Shrug!


Mayo
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Oct 2, 2015 5:22 AM CST
I think the answer to that is ....no. Smiling
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Gerry Donahue
Pleasant Lake, IN (Zone 5b)
Hostas Garden Ideas: Master Level
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profesora
Oct 2, 2015 6:15 AM CST
I did not count on someone not being familiar with the reference to "Size does not matter."

So, who is going to explain it to Mayo?
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Oct 2, 2015 7:13 AM CST
Yes, seed size/weight does matter.

This is the overall consensus of opinion of the effect of seed size/weight in plant species, taken from a published scientific study, [angiosperms are the flowering plants with seeds]

"In angiosperms, initial seed weight has a strong effect on plant success. Typically, large seeds produce large seedlings..." and "...this larger juvenile size enhances survival probability, adult size, and fecundity"

From another scientific study,

"Seed size is an important phenotypic trait commonly associated with the fitness of young seedlings exposed to environmental stress"

It is possible in perennial plant species such as daylilies, that the effects of different seed sizes may disappear with time. In annual species the effects can last years, which in those cases are generations.
Maurice
Name: Ashton & Terry
Jones, OK (Zone 7a)
Windswept Farm & Gardens
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kidfishing
Oct 2, 2015 8:57 AM CST
I do find that really large Tetraploid seeds don't sprout well. Hilarious!
Kidfishing
Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
Region: Europe Cat Lover Daylilies Irises Dog Lover Hellebores
Rabbit Keeper Container Gardener Organic Gardener
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Mayo62
Oct 2, 2015 11:40 AM CST
I have bought (dare I say it..? Rolling on the floor laughing ) several thousand DL seeds from different sellers and many different crosses.
Some of those seeds are small and wrinkled, some are big and plumb, some are dips some are tets.

I've germinated about 180 of them and I noticed sóme, small, differences in the size of the seedlings when I re-planted them in 1 gallon containers, but I thought that was because of the difference in adult plants.. Whistling
I would expect a 18" DL to have smaller seedlings than a 39" DL, or is that silly? Whistling


Mayo
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Oct 2, 2015 12:17 PM CST
I would expect a 18" DL to have smaller seedlings than a 39" DL, or is that silly?

Not at all.
It quite possibly is the case that on average smaller daylilies have smaller seeds (and seedlings) than larger daylilies. It is quite possible that on average daylilies with smaller flowers have smaller seeds (and seedlings) than daylilies with larger flowers.
However, even if there are such relationships between the average sizes of seeds (and seedlings) and plants it may still be true that seeds (or seedlings) of certain 18" daylilies are larger than the seeds (or seedlings) of certain 39" daylilies.
Thumb of 2015-10-02/admmad/907e04
The (fictitious - used as an example) figure is of the seed sizes of all cultivars (of the same ploidy) that are 18" and all cultivars (of the same ploidy) that are 39". In the figure the average seed size of 18" daylilies is significantly smaller than the average seed size of 39" daylilies. Even though that is the case, as just one example one can look at in the figure, daylilies in the green section of the 18" distribution have seed sizes that are larger than the average seed size of the 39" daylilies and daylilies in the blue section of the 39" distribution have seed sizes that are smaller than the average of the 18" daylilies.


Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Oct 2, 2015 3:15 PM (+)]
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