Wasn't sure DND I had seen that @Horntoad Jay also volunteered. Doesn't matter to me as long as I get new seeds I've been in a few, some good, some NOT so good There were so many rules in one it just wasn't worth doing Some of the RRs (not that this is a RR) were awful, by the time they got to me there was nothing but marigolds and tomatoes

luvsgrtdanes said:Wasn't sure DND I had seen that @Horntoad Jay also volunteered. Doesn't matter to me as long as I get new seeds I've been in a few, some good, some NOT so good There were so many rules in one it just wasn't worth doing Some of the RRs (not that this is a RR) were awful, by the time they got to me there was nothing but marigolds and tomatoes

I volunteered to set it up and be the central person and barring a disaster like health or hurricanes, I was willing to commit to future years. But DND started this so she gets to call the shots.

Horntoad said:

I volunteered to set it up and be the central person and barring a disaster like health or hurricanes, I was willing to commit to future years. But DND started this so she gets to call the shots.

Jay, if you're willing to commit to next year, I would really appreciate that, but I don't want you to feel like you're 'stuck' with it if something changes. Let's plan that I'll pass the baton to you next year (barring any objections). If you change your mind, that's okay, too (with ample notice, of course ).

It has been brought to my attention that I should have used the verbiage 'I would like to sponsor a seed exchange' when I started this thread, and perhaps that is true. To me, 'sponsoring' implies payment for, and I do not have the means to provide postage (etc.) for this event, but perhaps that is a misconception on my part of the notion of sponsoring something Either way, I should have put a dab more thought into the idea before I posted because I did come to the realization that if I'm going to create the framework for this project, I should be there during atleast its 'pilot season' to make sure it runs smoothly and that I am aware of any issues. For most of you, that's a good thing, the pressure is off. no volunteers needed this year. As next year approaches, if someone is chomping at the bit to volunteer, I may pass the reigns over. We'll play it by ear for future seed swaps, but the important thing to me is to make it fun, easy, and beneficial to everyone and to get some great forward momentum going for it so that it is successful each year and provides a great service going forward.

If there are any ideas expressed here that we don't use in this swap, I think some might make great possibilities for other swaps on atp - We don't have enough swaps around here.

I can imagine all kinds of swaps for atp - big or little, by color or calendar festival, inclusive of other countries, by type of plant (I'd love to see a seed swap for roses that would include seeds from rose hips we could collect, along with plants that make great rose companions, and since roses can vary from tiny midgets to forest giants, the sky would be the limit), a simple send in X number of packets and receive same back, etc.

And I think whatever database may come out of this swap would be great to keep in place for all kinds of other swaps.

And I love what DND is developing here and look forward very much to whatever that may be.

Thanks all for such a great discussion and opening new doors for atp.

RickCorey said:>>

Even the international phytosanitary certificates have been successfully ignored by many seed swaps, including one hosted in Canada (Heather's Tomato and Pepper Swap) , and one that shipped to several European countries (Ella's Hog Wild Piggy Swap). I don't dispute Caroline - they apparently are required by law, but I have yet to lose a packet sent to another country, or failed to receive one I expected.

I have had lots of stuff confiscated by Customs. Even when I have used APHIS permits - inbound to USA.
Just saying. Regarding Phytos, that can run into a whole heck of a lot of $$$ for someone

Horntoad has volunteered twice.

Regarding the host being a trustworthy person, I wasn't insinuating anything about anyone here. I've just heard stories of that sort of thing happening.

Yes, DND, if you found something helpful, feel free to add it to your notes.

For Jay and others that have participated in group swaps, a lot of that information may be obvious. However, if it's a new concept for someone then they may need a blueprint for that "wheel."

As far as who hosts the swap, the group trade concept is hardly exclusive to one person. Anyone that wants to host a group trade can do so. There is no reason DND and Jay can't both host their own swaps. Other websites have had many group swaps hosted by many different members for many years. Some people like to host seed swaps with different themes such as "All Veggies Swap," "Commercial Flower Seeds Only Swap," "Tomatoes & Peppers Only Swap," "Hummingbird & Butterfly Flower Swap," "Native Plants Only Swap," etc.

If Dave is creating a sleek new program that makes group trades easier, then hopefully it can handle multiple swaps simultaneously so that it can be used for any swap that someone would like to host. If he doesn't create something new, then a group swap is still very doable. If people were able to run swaps on that ancient, feeble system that GardenWeb used to have then managing one on ATP should be a breeze by comparison.

When considering postage options, don't forget that delivery confirmation costs .75 cents when added to regular first-class mail. It is free with Priority.

Okay, I think I've gotten too tired and my brain is shutting down now. Goodnight! I hope everyone has happy dreams of lovely seeds!

I'm excited and OK with whatever DogsNDaylilies and Dave come up with.

I'm accustomed to maintaining by hand several plain old "flat text" OFFER lists and OUTGOING and INCOMING lists, but it would be cool to have Dave's code provide some of the "double-entry bookkeeping" effort.

For example, when I agree to send a pkt of X to Person Y, the tool might list Y's name in my OFFER list, showing that one of the offered pkts of "Seed Type X" is now spoken for and unavailable to others.

It might also enter "Seed X" to my OUTGOING list, under Person Y's name.

It might even add "Seed X" to Person Y's INCOMING list under the "from RCorey" section.

Let's keep it simple.
And remember timing is really important. If swap goes on for too long and seeds don't arrive til March it will be a bit disappointing. Better to be simple and seeds get used asap and us southern gardeners get enthused as well.

I usually start with an "OFFERED" list like this, showing how many pkts of each I have to offer:

OFFERED:
SEED TYPE 1, Name, color, info, # seeds or "1/8th tsp", year, link to ATP Plant database or a picture
1.
2.
...
7.

OUTGOING
(empty)


After two requests for Seed Type 1 from me, it looks like this:

OFFERED:
SEED TYPE 1 , Name, color, info, # seeds or "1/8th tsp" year, link to ATP Plant database or a picture
1. SCButtercup
2. DavidLMO
3.
...
7.

-
OUTGOING:
SCButtercup
- - - SEED TYPE 1

DavidLMO
- - - SEED TYPE 1

I don;t know whether Dave wants to encourage showing off and competition, but if he lists the total # of pkts each person has "outgoing", some of us might get competitive about how many seeds we have takers for. In Ella's Piggy Swap, we called that "pimping our seeds".




The flip side of that is making it easy to see at a glance how many seeds someone has already requested. If someone has requested only a few seeds, I'll scour their Wish List to see if I have anything they might want. If they ask for something I'm already "out" of, according to my OFFERED list, I'll check to see if i can divvy up what I have left for myself and make another pkt for them.

However, for someone who has already got 200 incoming trades listed, I would probably NOT dig deeper to make another pkt to send to them ... unless they also have 100-200 trades OUTgoing.

That's my way to favor generous traders over Greedy Guss ...

I think my main goal is to make it *easy* for everyone, not necessarily simple. If I go simple on my end, it'll make things a lot harder for everyone else. My goal is to put a lot of work into the behind-the-scenes stuff and create a complex system that doesn't seem complex to the user and that allows the user to easily manage their lists.

It will also allow for fair trading. So, Rick, you won't have to worry about people 'getting more than their fair share' of goods because everything will be judged as fair on a per-trade basis. It's the most consistent means of making sure that people don't overdraw their 'take' of the goods. Traders could always 'throw in a little extra' if they want to be generous to particular people, but that's at the discretion of the providing trader, not the trader that's 'taking'.

DogsNDaylilies said:I think my main goal is to make it *easy* for everyone, not necessarily simple. If I go simple on my end, it'll make things a lot harder for everyone else. My goal is to put a lot of work into the behind-the-scenes stuff and create a complex system that doesn't seem complex to the user and that allows the user to easily manage their lists.

DogsNDaylilies said:
It will also allow for fair trading. So, Rick, you won't have to worry about people 'getting more than their fair share' of goods because everything will be judged as fair on a per-trade basis.

I mostly only care about "fair" when I'm down to just 1-2 trades left of something I'm proud of.
I guess a really exploitative moocher gets under my skin when they are lying to get something free.

For seeds that I have a lot of, I'd rather give them away to almost anyone rather than let them get years old sitting in my stash boxes.

>> everything will be judged as fair on a per-trade basis.

As long as we don't have to find "matching trades" every time someone wants something.

Here's an example: I went crazy in 2013 when I found a great sale on lettuce seed. I bought a whole OUNCE of some varieties. You know how many lettuce seeds are in one ounce?!? Now they are two years old and begging me to let them out their tubs and into someone's garden. I'd be thrilled to give 90% of them away to anyone who'll put them to good use, even if they don't have any seeds to offer back and didn't think to go buy one big packet they could split up and offer themselves.

But I do understand that it might be good policy for the whole trade to make sure people have something desirable to offer before letting them oink up all the best stuff.

Anyway, my opinion is this: since you're doing the work, you get to set the rules!

There are lots of good ideas expressed here.
I look forward to seeing you implement an ATP Seed Exchange.
I think you should get it up, and running,--- for the USA participants first.
That will be enough of a challenge for you.
Later,- you can decide on whether it should go International.

Just some ideas from my own observations in swaps:
There is an entry fee of ?$15 or $20 to the NARGS swap.
That lets you request 25 packets if you did not donate seeds,
and 35 packets if you are a donor.
NARGS charges $5 for every 20 packages you request from the surplus seeds.

Make the labelling of packets simple, and include the proper Latin name.
All the information on how to grow etc. should be entered in the ATP plant data base.
People can access the data base to find information about their seeds.
People offering seeds should make sure that the data base entry for what they are offering is up to date.

This is a very good project!

I was on the lines of thinking this was for trading, not donating and just requesting seeds

Ronnie - it is. I think some people may have extras that they'd like to pass along, though, for 'free' and that's okay, too.

It's a good point that there are two different things going on in most seed swaps.

Some people have lots of stuff they are happy to share freely as long as SOMETHING comes back, and the seeds do go to someone who will probably grow them out eventually, not just hoard them or re-trade them.

Other people have limited numbers of more rare seeds, that they want to trade for something of comparable rarity or value.

I don't know whether the swap needs two different channels or methods to accommodate those two different goals ... probably not.


>> All the information on how to grow etc. should be entered in the ATP plant data base.
>> People can access the data base to find information about their seeds.
>> People offering seeds should make sure that the data base entry for what they are offering is up to date.

That's a great idea! It also populates the plant database with information beyond the plant name.

Personally, I like to get as much info as I can fit onto each label, but I just love details. In my own stash, I appreciate it if the label itself reminds me of the basics like watering needs and "needs stratification" or "resents being transplanted". That's just me. Writing anything beyond the most-basic basics on each label should be voluntary.

I've just discovered this thread and I agree the wheel has already been invented. Look over on Cubits (sister site to ATP); check on the Hog Wild Piggy Seed Swap.

This can be fun. Here in ATP we need to have a place so others can view our lists.

This could work if we have two (2) threads dedicated for the ATP Seed Swap...one thread in only to be used to display our lists of available seed packs - no chit chat; the second thread is for claiming seeds, chatting, asking questions about cultivation, etc.

People participating in the swap will be actively posting on the 2 threads, but both threads will also be visible to ALL the people, members and non-members alike and can be a source of entertainment and education for a huge number of people. Doing the trades via Tree-mails...well, just not as much fun.

It would be nice if there were some uniformity in the way we post of offered seeds; perhaps each participant could make one post listing all their available seed...here is one seed for an example:

Talinum paniculata/Jewels of Opar - ornamental and/or edible; leaves can be cooked as a spinach substitute.
More information here: Jewels of Opar (Talinum paniculatum)
1-
2-
3-
4-
5-
That shows the botanical name/common name - a bit of information and a link (hopefully to our ATP database) so viewers can find more detailed information and possibly photos of the plant. The above list also indicated that there are 5 packs available.

As the seed packs are promised, the "vendor" would (by using the edit feature) add the screen names to the list until all the packs are spoken for. So after several days of trading, the list would look like this...and it would be visible that only one pack remains:

Talinum paniculata/Jewels of Opar - ornamental and/or edible; leaves can be cooked as a spinach substitute.
More information here: Jewels of Opar (Talinum paniculatum)
1-RickCorey
2-greene
3-Sharon
4-tuckersmom
5-

The idea being that not everyone has the time to read through dozens or hundreds of chatty posts to see what's still available.

After the last of the 5 packs has been promised, the "vendor" would use the edit feature to strike out the name of the plant so even latecomers could read all the information but will know they need to jump in earlier next time there is an ATP Seed Swap.

Talinum paniculata/Jewels of Opar - ornamental and/or edible; leaves can be cooked as a spinach substitute.
More information here: Jewels of Opar (Talinum paniculatum)
1-RickCorey
2-greene
3-Sharon
4-tuckersmom
5-Trish

I don't like to see too many rules but it seems that if a person offers 10 packs of seeds, they should be able to request 10; if they offer 150 packs, they can receive 150 packs. If only 2 people participate that would be the equivalent of a one-to-one trade, but with 20, 30, 40 people participating it would be a barrel of fun.

As for postage and packaging...each participant should send their seeds by a set date to the central person in a well padded bag or a box and include a Postal Money Order for either a small or medium priority USPS box depending on how greedily they requested seeds; tracking must be included on the packages as some packages can go off on a side trip and the tracking will help the seeds find their mark.

That's all I can think of to help this go smoothly.

If I recall the Piggy Swap correctly, everyone posted what they would have available and then on a certain date, you could start
"oinking" for the seeds you wanted. There was a time limit to this process. Once all the oinking stopped, everyone prepared
their seeds, properly labeled them and sent them to Ella, including a set fee for postage. Don't recall what that was, but maybe
$10? Ella was the clearing house for collating all the seeds and getting them to the proper parties, which usually took place in
early December.

Since Ella will not be coordinating this one, Jay will create his own system, I'm sure. Greene's suggestions are spot on.