Plant Database forum: Cultivars & Seedlings

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Name: Danita
GA (Zone 7b)
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Danita
Oct 8, 2015 12:08 PM CST
I've noticed that people are sometimes uploading photos to the database of plants that they have grown from seed that were collected from a particular cultivar. To be the true cultivar, they need to be propagated asexually and not seed grown.

In this example, the seedling is clearly different than the real cultivar but has gotten thumbs and so has taken up the main database photo slot.


This is just the most recent example that I've stumbled across. I've seen this happen in other plant entries also but don't remember which ones at the moment.

It's kind of nice to see what results you may get from planting seeds from different cultivars, but the seedlings can't continue to masquerade as the true cultivars in the database.

Would there be any way for people to add seedling photos to the database and keep them somehow linked to their mother cultivar without adding confusion?

Thanks! Big Grin
central Illinois
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jmorth
Oct 8, 2015 9:54 PM CST
Those non hybrid seedling might be better suited placed in the general category of the said plant (where the generic pics go).
Nothing that's been done can ever be changed.
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
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Calif_Sue
Oct 24, 2015 10:55 AM CST

Plants Admin

@Dave, this was never addressed.
Some plants come true from seed so folks can become confused.
In the meantime, I have moved that image to the generic salvia entry.
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Name: Danita
GA (Zone 7b)
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Danita
Oct 24, 2015 11:25 AM CST
Thanks, Sue! Smiling

Yes, people don't always know the difference between a named seed strain and a cultivar that must be asexually propagated.

I think that I notice this particularly because I've shared/traded a lot of Salvia seeds in the past. I include the mother plant's cultivar name but try to stress that the seedlings will not be that cultivar. Regardless, people will continue to refer to the seedlings by the mother plant's name and post photos to the database listing them as such.
[Last edited by Danita - Oct 24, 2015 11:26 AM (+)]
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Name: Danita
GA (Zone 7b)
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Danita
Oct 24, 2015 11:35 AM CST
Oh Sue, you may want to edit the caption on Hemophobic's photo to include the info about the mother plant/seed parent, Salvia greggii 'Furman's Red'.
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
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Calif_Sue
Oct 24, 2015 12:40 PM CST

Plants Admin

Done! Thumbs up Thank You!
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Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Oct 24, 2015 12:52 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Yes, a seedling of a cultivar probably belongs in the species or genus-level parent plant, because the seedling is a different plant than the cultivar.
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
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RickCorey
Nov 19, 2015 4:31 PM CST
Danita said:...
Yes, people don't always know the difference between a named seed strain and a cultivar that must be asexually propagated.


I think this practice contributes to that confusion: some seed traders will write "OP" on a seed packet, intending to convey "the pollen parent of THESE SEEDS is whatever the wind and insects happened to blow around". They might be isolated, or might be planted shoulder-to-shoulder with cousins and hybrids.

But the seed recipient sees "OP" and thinks "Oh, good! It must be an OP VARIETY, hence not any kind of hybrid or unstable cross. Good, it will come true from seeds, so I'll just bag my plant and re-offer the seeds with the name that was on the pkt I received".

The next trader gets F3 seeds but doesn't know how off-brand they are unless they look up the alleged variety and notice that their "OP variety" is really some generations after an F1cross.


Now that I know how differently "OP" is used by different people, I assume that any traded seed is cross-pollinated unless the trader spells out the isolation method used.

And I Google the variety to determine whether F1 or open-pollinated-VARIETY.

Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Nov 20, 2015 9:33 AM CST
FWIW, and not saying it's relevant in this case, but it is possible for a plant not propagated asexually to be considered a cultivar under the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants. As just one example from the code:

"2.12. An assemblage of individual plants grown from seed derived from uncontrolled pollination may form a cultivar when it meets the criteria laid down in Art. 2.3 and when it can be distinguished consistently by one or more characters even though the individual plants of the assemblage may not be genetically uniform."

Some of the examples given under this section are Lavatera 'Ice Cool', Millium effusum 'Aureum', Viola 'Penny Black' - "are cultivars which are propagated from seed".

The criteria in Art. 2.3 referred to in the above is that "A cultivar is an assemblage of plants that (a) has been selected for a particular character or combination of characters (b) is distinct, uniform and stable in these characters, and (c) when propagated by appropriate means, retains those characters..."

Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Vegetable Grower
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member
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RickCorey
Nov 20, 2015 11:48 AM CST
Sue, I agree with that. Any heirloom variety of vegetable fits that example of "cultivar".

A population selected and inbred, then rouged, now genetically uniform enough to "come true" from sexual propagation / seeds.

Name: Danita
GA (Zone 7b)
Charter ATP Member Forum moderator Hummingbirder Salvias Butterflies Birds
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Danita
Nov 20, 2015 11:58 AM CST
To be clear, I was in no way implying that the term "cultivar" can only be applied to plants that must be asexually propagated (although, I can easily see how my sentence could be interpreted that way.)

My intention was to say...
People don't always know the difference between a named seed-strain cultivar and a cultivar that must be asexually propagated.

Smiling

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