Dennis

To stabilize a trait when it is only showing in one cultivar, I would self it. And then make sibling crosses and back crosses with the best of your results. You can also make the same cross that produced the trait to see if you can produce the trait again and hopefully have two different plants with the same trait. Thankfully, when new traits arise from hidden genotypes, they are likely to occur in several gardens at once. So if you keep in touch with hybridizers in some way, you will hear of other plants you can use.

I rarely post to the forums in the summer BTW.....I get pretty busy.....but feel free to send me private email. I'm posting now because we have had 7 straight days of rain in North Carolina and I'm going out of my mind being inside all the time!!!!

DogsNDaylilies

I think the goals you are setting for yourself are quite admirable. While there are many large flowered, shorter cultivars that are evergreen, they are few and far between in dormants, which would grow well in your area. Go for it!!!

To stabilize a trait when it is only showing in one cultivar, I would self it. And then make sibling crosses and back crosses with the best of your results. You can also make the same cross that produced the trait to see if you can produce the trait again and hopefully have two different plants with the same trait. Thankfully, when new traits arise from hidden genotypes, they are likely to occur in several gardens at once. So if you keep in touch with hybridizers in some way, you will hear of other plants you can use.

These are excellent strategies.
They work on the genetic differences that are present in the cultivar that shows the characteristic and its relatives. As an example lets say that the characteristic is affected by three genes in the plant showing it. To make things easier lets assume it is a diploid and that the three genes are labelled 1, 2, 3. The plant that shows the characteristic is genetically 1 +/+, 2+/-, 3+/- (where plus strengthens the appearance of the characteristic and minus does nothing to the characteristic and four or more pluses cause the characteristic to be visible to some extent). Selfing it, making sibling crosses and backcrosses have as their goal to produce plants that are 1 +/+, 2 +/+, 3 +/+.

There is another strategy. In this case the plant with the characteristic is crossed to as many unrelated plants as possible. The goal in this strategy is to find plants that are genetically different but can add to the characteristic. For example. there might be a plant that is 1 -/-, 2 -/-. 3 -/-, but 4 +/- and 5 -/-. There might be another plant that is 1 -/-, 2-/-, 3 -/-, 4 -/- but 5 +/-. Neither of these two plants will show any sign of the characteristic but some of the seedlings from the cross of the plant showing the characteristic with the first plant will be 1 +/-, 2 +/-, 3 +/-, 4 +/-, 5 -/- and will show some of the characteristic and some of the seedlings from the similar cross with the second plant will be 1 +/-, 2 +/-, 3 +/-, 4 -/-, 5 +/- and will also show some of the characteristic.

The original plant showing the characteristic was genetically 1 +/+, 2+/-, 3+/- , 4 -/- 5 -/-. Crossing the seedling, 1 +/-, 2 +/-, 3 +/-, 4 +/-, 5 -/- with the seedling 1 +/-, 2 +/-, 3 +/-, 4 -/-, 5 +/- will produce some offspring that are 1 +/+, 2 +/+, 3 +/+, 4 +/-, 5 +/-. Working with seedlings with those genes would then produce seedlings that are 1 +/+, 2 +/+, 3 +/+, 4 +/+, 5 +/+. Seedlings with this genotype could then be used in crosses to test yet other unrelated cultivars looking for any that might carry 6 +/- or 7 +/-, (and not ever show the characteristic) etc. to bring into the line. The intention in this strategy is to find other genes that affect the characteristic and accumulate them in the line. As more genes are accumulated the characteristic becomes more stable or more extreme, etc.

Libby - If it was me starting an odd daylily thread, I don't remember it. I did a search and found those other threads I listed previously.

Every time I read about capitalizing on a trait, I remember my Laura Mast x Dragonfly Dawn seedling. It was a consistent double bloomer it's first year of blooming. That double trait was not even considered a consistent double from generations back, but because the same cultivar was on BOTH sides of it's pedigree ... it threw doubles! I was scratching my head on that one until Maurice found the possible genetic link that probably created a double seedling. Genetics are fascinating to watch show up!

http://garden.org/thread/view_...

Maurice's reply:
http://garden.org/thread/view_...

DogsNDaylilies send me a treemail. I may have a daylily you can use for your breeding program.

Pity we cannot hybridise for this. I think it actually was a fusion of four blooms.

When you are checking what the genealogical chart for a parent you have used and you run into this: "seedling # B-93-CR-EY" for 'Cranberry Eyed Picotee' in AHS database. What do you do? Is this just the same as saying "parents unknown"?

I would think that one of the parents would be Cranberry Eyes Picotee but the other would most likely be unknown.

Glen - Sometimes you can find a photo of the seedling used in a cross on the hybridizer's website. I have found a few photos (often with info - especially parent info) on some websites. I write all that info down (if I am using that particular seedling or registered daylily in my hybridizing program). I have even emailed hybridizers and was directed to their website with a link to the particular seedling I was inquiring about. The small time hybridizers are often more willing to be helpful than the larger hybridizers, but sometimes I get a reply from them too!

Gleni said:When you are checking what the genealogical chart for a parent you have used and you run into this: "seedling # B-93-CR-EY" for 'Cranberry Eyed Picotee' in AHS database. What do you do? Is this just the same as saying "parents unknown"?

If I understand the question correctly, it either means the parents are unknown or the hybridizer chose not to include them since parentage is optional for registration. The seedling number is the hybridizer's ID for the cultivar prior to registration.

Many thanks. I didn't realise that the submission of parentage was optional for a new registration.

Ah! I misunderstood the question. I thought the parents were labeled with that string of letters/numbers for an ID, not the actual seedling. Makes sense now. Thanks Sue for clearing that up!

No problem Becky. I should learn to ask a question properly!

Gleni said:Pity we cannot hybridise for this. I think it actually was a fusion of four blooms.

• Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Hearts and Lace')
• Uploaded by Gleni

While yours is a fused bloom Gleni, you can hybridize for a daylily Form that has a similar appearance, the Polymerous Form. They really are a unique, beautiful and interesting Form of daylilies. Here's a link to the AHS Daylily Dictionary definition for Polymerous.
http://www.daylilies.org/ahs_d...
And a few images of Poly forms from the database....








I got carried away looking at them.

Amazing. So lovely. Thanks Char.

[quote="DogsNDaylilies"]

Is that really all that survive? Eeesh! Is there a greater likelihood of survival if you're breeding mainly dormants in the north? (i.e. is the high mortality rate a possible consequence of evergreen genes being played out in colder climates where many evergreens don't do as well?) Is that rate for seed grown in regular soil? Will mine have a significantly better chance being in a raised garden bed with better soil? Oy....one out of 16 means I'll be lucky to have a small handful survive. I need to ask my honey to buy me a few acres of land some year....
Quote


One out of 16 is not survival rate. I should have quoted Maurice where he was showing how change can be seen in diploid crosses. 1 out of 16 diploid seedlings may show the change that the cross was made to produce. The total survival rate will be 75-80 % of all planted so you will not need acres of land after all. So far this summer the survival rate is very good and our winters are not extreme but we do have lots of freeze and thaw.

Trying my hand at hybridizing. I read that dips and tets cannot be crossed. However, I see a number of intro's with dips and tets as the parents. How is this possible?

For example PIRATE’S ISLAND (Pierce G.) 354-B (Buffalo Thunder x Tetra. Rose F. Kennedy)

Buffalo Thunder is a dip
Rose F Kennedy Tet

Occasionally a particular cultivar will cross with both dips and tets .... but in this case "Buffalo Thunder" is a tet.

Buffalo Thunder (Stamile-Pierce, 2012)
height 42in (107cm), bloom 7.75in (19.5cm), season EM, Rebloom, Evergreen, Tetraploid, 40 buds, 6 branches, Black purple self with white edging above green throat. ((Violet Becomes You × Big Red Wagon) × (Violet Becomes You × Into the Evening))

Thank you TreeClimber... I was misreading and had Buffalo Thunder marked as a dip instead of tet.

Crossing dips with tets and that it rarely works is covered in a few places, e.g. this post from Maurice:
http://garden.org/thread/view_...

But in your example above, both parents are tets. 'Buffalo Thunder' is registered as a tet:
http://www.daylilies.org/Dayli...

While the original 'Rose F. Kennedy' is registered as a dip, the "tetra" in front of the name indicates that it was converted to tetraploid and that the tetraploid version was used in the cross. So it is tet to tet. The AHS doesn't list tetraploid conversions separately from the original diploid.

Edit - obviously I took too long to type and ended up cross-posting (can one not include an emoji in an edit?)