The ATP Beta "First Swap" Swap: What to do if a bunch of your seeds are selected, but you don't want much?

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Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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dave
Nov 7, 2015 8:10 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

I had someone tree mail me the question because they didn't feel comfortable bringing it up in public. The question is: what will we do if you can't find enough other seeds that interest you? What if 50 packets are requested of you, but you can only find a few that you want? Are you obligated to send all 50 even if you only get a couple back?

I don't really know the answer to this, except that first, you're of course not obligated to participate if you don't see anything you want.

How have other swaps, like the piggy swap, et al, handled this scenario in the past?
Name: Sandy B.
Ford River, Michigan UP (Zone 4b)
(Zone 4b-maybe 5a)
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Weedwhacker
Nov 7, 2015 8:17 PM CST
Well... I participated in the Piggy Swap last year (for the first time) and I don't know if anyone had an issue with that. All I can say for sure is that I have more seed than I need right now and am hoping to give it away (and resist asking for any - well, better make that many - seeds).

I don't think you can really go into a group swap with the expectation of getting an "even" trade, but I could be wrong about that. I would say that I think if you are offering 50 packets and they are all requested, then yes, you are obligated to send them out. Shrug!
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Name: Arlene
Grantville, GA (Zone 8a)
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abhege
Nov 7, 2015 8:20 PM CST
In the Piggy Swap it's not a one to one trade. You offer your seeds, whatever amount and you choose your seeds from others, whatever amount Ella limited the "oinks" to. So, if you pick 30 different seeds you would like, you "oink" for them, even if only ten people "oink" for your seeds.

I think the Piggy Swap is more about people wanting to share what they have and would like to try some of what others have so it's not an even one to one. There are lots of people who offer a huge list of seeds and hardly ask for any. So in that respect it may not be for some who expect something in return for what they are putting out there.
Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Tip Photographer Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Hibiscus
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Horntoad
Nov 7, 2015 8:26 PM CST
I would say yes. If you put the seeds up for trade then you should follow through and send what people select. This is not a person to person trade, where you make a deal with a specific individual. If someone feels like they need to get an even one for one trade then it would be best to offer their seed in the "Plant and Send Trade" forum, where the can negotiate a better deal. I hope I find a fairly equal amount of seeds before it is over, but if not then that's just the way it goes. For me it is more about sharing and learning about other plants.
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[Last edited by Horntoad - Nov 7, 2015 8:28 PM (+)]
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Name: Arlene
Grantville, GA (Zone 8a)
Greenhouse Region: Georgia Garden Sages Organic Gardener Beekeeper Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Cut Flowers Composter Keeper of Poultry Keeps Goats Avid Green Pages Reviewer
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abhege
Nov 7, 2015 8:29 PM CST
I agree I agree
Horntoad said: If someone feels like they need to get an even one for one trade then it would be best to offer their seed in the "Plant and Send Trade" forum, where the can negotiate a better deal.


Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Tip Photographer Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Hibiscus
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Horntoad
Nov 7, 2015 8:34 PM CST
Weedwhacker said: All I can say for sure is that I have more seed than I need right now and am hoping to give it away (and resist asking for any - well, better make that many - seeds).



That's me. I have a lot of seed that I have no intention of planting. If I can get them to someone who would enjoy them then great.

wildflowersoftexas.com
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[Last edited by Horntoad - Nov 7, 2015 8:35 PM (+)]
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Name: Ronnie
Southeastern PA (Zone 6b)
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luvsgrtdanes
Nov 7, 2015 8:49 PM CST
I think if you are going to join a trade like this you have to expect that it may not be even.
It happens in a flash, but the memory of it last forever. It can not be borrowed or stolen, and it is of no earthly good until it is given away. So if in your hurry you meet someone who is too weary to smile, leave him one of yours, for no one needs a smile quite as much as he who has none to give...

Name: Ronnie
Southeastern PA (Zone 6b)
Morning Glories Garden Photography Region: Pennsylvania Charter ATP Member Orchids Dragonflies
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Photo Contest Winner: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1 I helped beta test the first seed swap Bookworm Bee Lover
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luvsgrtdanes
Nov 7, 2015 9:03 PM CST
It could go the opposite way too...you want a lot of seeds and no one wants yours Whistling I'd feel bad Shrug!
Not saying I want a lot of seeds or anything Whistling
It happens in a flash, but the memory of it last forever. It can not be borrowed or stolen, and it is of no earthly good until it is given away. So if in your hurry you meet someone who is too weary to smile, leave him one of yours, for no one needs a smile quite as much as he who has none to give...

Name: Alana H
(Zone 7a)
Frogs and Toads Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter I helped beta test the first seed swap Keeper of Poultry Garden Ideas: Level 1
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poisondartfrog
Nov 8, 2015 5:27 AM CST
From my swap experience over the last several years it seems there are two basic swap event models.

Some swaps are structured so that you receive at least as many as you send in and that is stated in the initial rules. That expectation is set up front and the host determines the mechanism for achieving that. In those cases the players may guide what they receive to an extent, but don't have control of the outcome.

In a swap like this where players determine what they receive there is usually no expectation of a certain return. People list only what they are prepared to exchange for the opportunity to shop for seeds they know they want. The format of this kind of swap is not for people who measure the Kool-Aid in the glass to make sure no one got a milliliter more than they did. (Sorry, it is early and I was remembering how my mom used to have to keep pouring back and forth to keep my sister happy back in the day.) It is also probably not for people with only a few seeds who want to start trading actively and don't want to forfeit a lot of seeds they might have used to join other swaps. If that's the case, they should not offer more than they can afford. If people send in extra seeds, the host might distribute the bounty across all participants or might pad the envelopes of those whose return pales in comparison to what they sent. The disposition of extra seeds is often stated up front, too.

I like both kinds of swaps. Spelling out the rules and expectations at the beginning is the best way to avoid confusion and displeasure from participants, especially among new swappers.
[Last edited by poisondartfrog - Nov 8, 2015 5:35 AM (+)]
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Name: Elena
NYC (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Hybridizer Peonies Vegetable Grower Seed Starter Organic Gardener
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bxncbx
Nov 8, 2015 6:33 AM CST
I agree with what others have written. I'm offering seeds because I want to share them with others and I have more than I can ever plant. If I send 50 packs but only get 15 back that is fine with me! I'd rather get 15 packs of seed I really want than 50 packs of seed I don't need/want.

This is also where wish lists come into play. If they want specific seeds they don't see listed then they should put them on their wish list. If people see that, they may add to their swap list just to satisfy someone's wish. It doesn't always work but it increases your chances, especially in a large swap, of getting what you really want.
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
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DogsNDaylilies
Nov 8, 2015 8:55 AM CST
[post deleted to re-start in new thread]
[Last edited by DogsNDaylilies - Nov 8, 2015 8:59 AM (+)]
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Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
I helped beta test the first seed swap
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DogsNDaylilies
Nov 8, 2015 9:03 AM CST
I went into this seed swap idea with the idea that this was going to be a swap based on fair trading principles where every trade was approved so that no one felt like they were pressured to 'donate' seeds to anyone. I also had hoped that the option to 'donate' seeds would be readily available to anyone who wanted to.

There are many free-for-all type swaps that are already in existence. That was not what I had intended for this one when I suggested the seed swap idea. I do hope we come to a consensus as a group because, while I do have a few things I would like to donate, I was intending for everyone to feel comfortable (including myself) that they would get some things they want in return. I would like to know beforehand if this is going to be a 'free for all' style of swap. To me, it sort of sounds like this is reverting to another piggy swap.
[Last edited by DogsNDaylilies - Nov 8, 2015 9:06 AM (+)]
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Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
I helped beta test the first seed swap
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DogsNDaylilies
Nov 8, 2015 9:09 AM CST
I should add that I also think that the system of approving trades also ensures that the host doesn't end up with a whole bunch of 'donated' seeds that they don't know what to do with. If everyone agrees on trades, including trades that involve a 'something for nothing'...then everything has a place to go and no one is left trying to figure out what to do with a million tomato or marigold seeds that they don't know what to do with.
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
Nov 8, 2015 12:58 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

It sounds like the consensus for this beta swap is that this'll be a free-for-all piggy type swap. You offer up the stuff you're willing to get rid of, and you jump at whatever you see that you want. There will not need to be parity between what you're offering and what you're getting, and by participating, you're accepting that.

It may be that I'll have to program it so that in future swaps, the host can decide what kind of swap it'll be: free for all, or strictly regulated and "fair." But in that case, I can't even begin to imagine how to make it "Fair." A packet of seeds that are worth $50 each obviously can't count the same as a packet of backyard collected marigold seeds.
Name: Alana H
(Zone 7a)
Frogs and Toads Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter I helped beta test the first seed swap Keeper of Poultry Garden Ideas: Level 1
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poisondartfrog
Nov 8, 2015 1:13 PM CST
dave said:
It may be that I'll have to program it so that in future swaps, the host can decide what kind of swap it'll be: free for all, or strictly regulated and "fair." But in that case, I can't even begin to imagine how to make it "Fair." A packet of seeds that are worth $50 each obviously can't count the same as a packet of backyard collected marigold seeds.


I like having those options. The idea of a carefully regulated swap is fine as far as it goes and will attract a lot of participants, but so do other formats. I would not like to see a system that forces it for every swap. As my little Sophie says "that would squirsh all the fun out of it."

Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
I helped beta test the first seed swap
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DogsNDaylilies
Nov 8, 2015 1:24 PM CST
dave said:It sounds like the consensus for this beta swap is that this'll be a free-for-all piggy type swap. You offer up the stuff you're willing to get rid of, and you jump at whatever you see that you want. There will not need to be parity between what you're offering and what you're getting, and by participating, you're accepting that.

It may be that I'll have to program it so that in future swaps, the host can decide what kind of swap it'll be: free for all, or strictly regulated and "fair." But in that case, I can't even begin to imagine how to make it "Fair." A packet of seeds that are worth $50 each obviously can't count the same as a packet of backyard collected marigold seeds.


By 'fair', I don't mean dollar-wise. 'Fair', to me, is that a trade is agreed-upon. It isn't a "here's everything I have" and "I hope there's something remaining that I want". In some ways, I picture this a little like trading in the board game, 'Monopoly'. In Monopoly, a trade is offered and the other player can accept it, reject it, or make a new offer. That's how I see this happening and, to me, that's fair. Something might be worth $1 to me and worth $50 to someone else, so monetary value doesn't seem as appropriate here as just making sure that *both* parties in the individual trade are happy with what they are getting. Big Grin

...and before some people say "then trade in the Plant Swap" forum or something similar, keep in mind that I was hoping that this trading system would allow for large quantities of trades among many individuals who agree upon individual trades: http://garden.org/thread/view_post/963803/
[Last edited by DogsNDaylilies - Nov 8, 2015 1:29 PM (+)]
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Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
I helped beta test the first seed swap
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DogsNDaylilies
Nov 8, 2015 1:32 PM CST
This image that I posted in the other thread might show what I mean about 'fair':


Thumb of 2015-11-08/DogsNDaylilies/83c63b

As I stated in the other thread, this is a VERY rudimentary picture that I created in a spreadsheet program, so it doesn't have some of the features (such as a "print packing list" button) that it could have.
Name: Cinda
Indiana Zone 5b
Dances with Dirt
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gardengus
Nov 8, 2015 2:01 PM CST
You may want to reconsider the whole word ''fair'' Because at best it makes other swaps sound ''unfair'' and the word itself has a different meaning to almost any one polled .
Maybe a ''controlled'' swap or ''negotiated trade'' would be a better (politically correct) way of wording your proposal.
Smiling
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Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Tip Photographer Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Hibiscus
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Horntoad
Nov 8, 2015 2:29 PM CST
I still think if you are looking for a one to one, or negotiated type swap then you should just offer them in the Plant and Seed Trade forum. Which bring up a question I have been meaning to ask @dave. Can this swap list be used in the Plant and Seed trade forum? Can we just go to that forum and say I have some seeds to trade here is my list, and give them the link?
wildflowersoftexas.com
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Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
I helped beta test the first seed swap
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DogsNDaylilies
Nov 8, 2015 2:34 PM CST
gardengus said:You may want to reconsider the whole word ''fair'' Because at best it makes other swaps sound ''unfair'' and the word itself has a different meaning to almost any one polled .
Maybe a ''controlled'' swap or ''negotiated trade'' would be a better (politically correct) way of wording your proposal.
Smiling


Agreed. I like that. Thumbs up

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