Okay, I can see the pros and cons of both Dave's and DogNDaylily's ideas.

If everyone just throws their seed into one big pot then you run the risk of people giving a little but getting a lot. Or giving "not so good seed" but getting lots of "fancy, expensive" seed in return. But everyone gets a good shot at getting seed they want.

On the other side, if everyone ends up doing mutual trades you could end up with a situation where very few people get the seeds they want because only one person in each trade has something the other wants. You would have to hope people would be very generous with "freebies". But if you could make the trade each party would be highly satisfied with the outcome and it would be harder for someone to "game" the system.

Seems to me there has to be a middle ground that would increase the chances of getting the seed you want but not being a complete free-for-all where some people end up feeling like they got a raw deal.

Any thoughts??

I don't see why the "mutual trade" is so far to the opposite corner. I felt like it was the middle ground because it allows for someone to give "freebies"....(which, as I'm reading the Piggy Swap rules, this could benefit people who would be called 'survivors' or 'newbies' there...but could go to anyone of that person's choosing).

There is also the option of 'donations' (which I have come to think should be allowed at the discretion of the organizer)....this is where the 'fun' could come in. If I have 100 packets of seed that I don't want, and I'm in a Swap that allows for donations, I can send them in and allow the organizer to evenly distribute the seeds to everyone.

So, everyone gets their "mutual trades" that ensure they are getting a 'fair shake' in everything, but then they MAY also receive a little extra surprise from any kind souls that donate seeds.

Yes, you allow freebies but not everyone is going to give them. I'm a softie but everyone isn't and if most people in the swap refuse to give freebies then you could end up with the situation I described. Again, worst-case scenario.

And a lot of people would opt out for donated seed. People consider that a place where people go to dump seed no one wants. This is why some people don't want to take seed that someone got from another swap. They figure it's been passed around forever because nobody wanted it.

I think if DandD had ever participated in the Piggy Swap she would understand why a lot of folks are not keen on the broker or one to one swap, whatever you want to call it. See, it sounds like she only wants to share her seeds with people who have seeds she wants if I am reading it right. That's not the point of the Piggy Swap. It's to share what you have with everyone on a first "oink" basis, not just because they have something you want. And you can get some great seeds from someone without having to worry if they will want what you have to offer.

Some people are newbies and have only a few seeds to offer. With the Piggy Swap, they have an equal chance at getting any of the seeds offered.

DogsNDaylilies said:I don't see why the "mutual trade" is so far to the opposite corner. I felt like it was the middle ground because it allows for someone to give "freebies"....(which, as I'm reading the Piggy Swap rules, this could benefit people who would be called 'survivors' or 'newbies' there...but could go to anyone of that person's choosing).

There is also the option of 'donations' (which I have come to think should be allowed at the discretion of the organizer)....this is where the 'fun' could come in. If I have 100 packets of seed that I don't want, and I'm in a Swap that allows for donations, I can send them in and allow the organizer to evenly distribute the seeds to everyone.

So, everyone gets their "mutual trades" that ensure they are getting a 'fair shake' in everything, but then they MAY also receive a little extra surprise from any kind souls that donate seeds.

DnD, I'm not saying that you should not do just that. All I am saying is that you could do that for your swap and so could anyone else who wants to participate, myself included. But no one should be compelled to do it that way. The wonderful tools Dave is giving us to work with should not be constructed in a way to make that type of swap the default. People can decide for themselves from swap to swap what rules (aside from basic ATP tenets) and expectations they enjoy, and how many thingamabobs like approvals and restrictions they are comfortable with at any given time.

I give up. If the majority of people want another piggy swap, then the democratic way of handling it is to do the piggy swap format. I'm not going to stand in the way of that. Maybe I'll love that format, maybe I won't. I've said my part and I haven't convinced anyone, so I had my chance and it's over. That's the way the cookie crumbles. Forgive me, I might am feeling a little frustrated right now because I'm 0/2 on my 'big ideas' here on ATP, but I'll get over it. Atleast the ball is rolling toward having a seed swap that there is clearly a demand for, and that's the important thing.

DogsNDaylilies said:I give up. If the majority of people want another piggy swap, then the democratic way of handling it is to do the piggy swap format. I'm not going to stand in the way of that. Maybe I'll love that format, maybe I won't. I've said my part and I haven't convinced anyone, so I had my chance and it's over. That's the way the cookie crumbles. Forgive me, I might am feeling a little frustrated right now because I'm 0/2 on my 'big ideas' here on ATP, but I'll get over it. Atleast the ball is rolling toward having a seed swap that there is clearly a demand for, and that's the important thing.

I think you are looking at it all wrong. Although this particular swap may not look like what you envisioned, it is happening because of you. You are the one that put forth the idea and made it happen. If I am correct it is also your input than lead to the system that Dave has created. This is not the Piggy Swap but a variation of it and numerous other swaps. It may even be a better version because of Dave's program and the input you gave.

@Horntoad - thank you. Your post is reassuring. I do hope that something I've done or said has made an impact beyond simply bringing up the idea of a seed swap. There were already seed swaps going on in the Plant and Seed Trade and I know Dave had mentioned that he's been wanting to do one, so it's easy for me to feel like all I did was wave my hands around and make it a slightly bigger deal a little earlier than it might otherwise have been. Not all that I had hoped for. I'm trying not to feel that way. Your words are kind and encouraging, though, and do a good part to lift my spirits. Thank you.

DogsNDaylilies said:@Horntoad - thank you. Your post is reassuring. I do hope that something I've done or said has made an impact beyond simply bringing up the idea of a seed swap. There were already seed swaps going on in the Plant and Seed Trade and I know Dave had mentioned that he's been wanting to do one, so it's easy for me to feel like all I did was wave my hands around and make it a slightly bigger deal a little earlier than it might otherwise have been. Not all that I had hoped for. I'm trying not to feel that way. Your words are kind and encouraging, though, and do a good part to lift my spirits. Thank you.

I think you did a little more that say lets have a seed swap. You put forth an idea created and directed a conversion that lead to the swap. But also while you were trying to get things going in the open forum, you were also having behind the scenes with Dave, that we did not even know about. Although he may have wanted to do one, it seems to me that it was all the work and thought that you put into it that made it happen. It more not be exactly what you had hoped for, but it is going to be a great addition to ATP.

DND this is just the first trade with hopefully many more to come. From my understanding each host will be able to set their own trade system.

I'm blown away by the thoughtful replies I've been seeing in this and other threads in this forum. Over all these years, this is the best group of beta testers I've ever had the pleasure of working with. You guys are all giving thoughtful consideration to the ideas being proposed, and then sharing your opinions and helping others understand your points of view. This is great. Kudos to all of you.

luvsgrtdanes said:From my understanding each host will be able to set their own trade system.

Although nothing is set in stone right now, this group swap feature will not in the near future support a 1 to 1 trading system. It'll always be a group system, where you go in and claim what you want, and others claim what they want from you. All done without specifically pairing individuals up with each other.

DnD I totally understand your goal: centralizing postage while facilitating people finding enough "good enough" one-on-one trades to motivate them to send out one box for many trades in return.

That's a noble goal, especially for those with rare seeds or specific, exotic desires. A swap like that might draw out people who gave up on trading seeds years ago "because you can't find any one person with enough interesting seeds to be worth spending $12 on round-trip postage (or $7-8 with bubble mailers).

For a moment I was excited that you or Dave might jump on the 3-way idea ... three way seed trades, that is.

Where :
- A wants what B has
- B wants what C has and
- C wants what A has

In principle one might be able to write software to:

1. scan N Want lists and N Have lists, then find all 2-way, 3-way or 4-way potential trades.
2. Propose the trades via automatic group TreeMails.
3. If they agree, then they can all join the same swap and swap those seeds (and others) via centralized postage.

Of course, each possible link in a chain of 3-4 trades could fail if:
- the Want or Have list was out-of-date or
- the member dropped out of contact or
- any of the people doesn't consider the Counter-Offer worth as much as the Offer
- any of the people are too busy to join a swap

Best to run such a search on Have and Wish lists that are up-to-date. Maybe the Swap Offer and Wish Lists will be more up-to-date than the Plant Database Have and Want lists.

(to all of it)


...and thank you.

luvsgrtdanes said: DND this is just the first trade with hopefully many more to come. From my understanding each host will be able to set their own trade system.

Exactly! I think we all need to keep in mind that this is a "beta test" of the swapping feature on ATP. We don't really know right now what all Dave has planned for this swap, but I believe most of trust that he pretty well knows what he's doing....

Might be time for everyone to just take a deep breath and sort some seeds!

Weedwhacker said:

Exactly! I think we all need to keep in mind that this is a "beta test" of the swapping feature on ATP. We don't really know right now what all Dave has planned for this swap, but I believe most of trust that he pretty well knows what he's doing....

Might be time for everyone to just take a deep breath and sort some seeds!

.....

dave said:
Although nothing is set in stone right now, this group swap feature will not in the near future support a 1 to 1 trading system. It'll always be a group system, where you go in and claim what you want, and others claim what they want from you. All done without specifically pairing individuals up with each other.

Well, wish-lists do offer a back-door way to do one-on-one negotiated trades within a looser swap structure.

- I see your Wish List and TreeMail you.

- "I could offer you my beloved X that you desire, but I won't Offer it unless I get something back that makes me drool."

- Somehow they find something to swap, or a 3-way swap with some third party, or a 4-way swap.

- Now it would be handy if we could occasionally call "Dibbs" or reserve an offering for a specific person. The 2-4 people with a negotiated trade would reserve their negotiated items for each other before Offering them.

Why would a swap allow that, other than generosity? It would bring the outsiders from a 3-way or 4-way swap into the group swap, along with other seeds they offer to qualify for the swap. It motivates people to make up detailed, CURRENT Wish Lists.

Maybe a host would only allow 1-2 "reservations" or "Dibbses" per person per swap, if they have downsides WRT fairness.

I agree - In this type of group swap (where you are requesting what you want from others) we should expect to give up all our seeds offerings, whether or not we find an equal number to request in return.

One Idea -would be to have a 'starting limit' for requests - the opening day of the swap everyone can select a limit of say three seeds that they really want the most. This way, it will give everyone a better chance of getting those wish seeds that might be limited to only a few packs available. This could be carried over to the next day or more.

The less restrictive, I think, the better. If it gets too complicated with rules and regulations, many will probably be turned off to joining.

I think we should just let this beta swap take its course. Then we can review and address any problems that arise after the swap is over. It will probably be the exception, not the rule of people who would take advantage of this feature. Problem children can be dealt with!

Well said, Christine!

wildflowers said:
Problem children can be dealt with!