I thought Ella had a nice touch: no matter how hard she scolded you, you didn't mind because she was a Sweetie about it.

P.S. Someone - maybe Ella, maybe someone else - talked about an entire LIST of problem children she had encountered. I seem to recall she even knew different IP addresses or maybe modem-ID-chips that they used to hide their seed-scavenging! (That makes me think it was someone more Internet-savvy than Ella, or at least with a better-working PC).

Whoever that was, almost relished whacking each repeat offender when they came back with a new alias.

Whoever that was, and however she did it, I'm guessing that Dave has power tools for suppressing any bad apples that arise. My rule of thumb is "How long ya been a member?" if someone I never saw before wants a big favor. If it's their first day on the site, I think twice, but maybe.

I keep thinking of suggesting "preference flags" for traders who have made more than X posts or contributed more than Y photos to ATP ... but we probably we don't want to be that exclusive.

It finally sank in for me why "fairness" is a big deal. Some seeds really ARE rare and/or precious to the owner. Maybe some are so expensive that one pkt IS worth worrying about the cost of, and the return on investment from.

Then "getting back a fair amount and quality" is a big deal for some, maybe much bigger than the $12 postage.

I hope we eager Betans SHARE some seed interests! It would be embarrassing to find that we all listed seeds that we personally love, but no one else wants! That's why "theme" swaps have a leg up.

Bad apples can be one problem, people that come along and want to take advantage of the generous nature of all of us who want to share our seeds. A mention of this can somehow be put on this thread to ward off some of those offenders?? I've always been impressed with Ella's way with words, she can be so nice but oh so blunt all at the same time. But, as the saying goes, let's not let the bad apple spoil the bunch.

wildflowers said:But, as the saying goes, let's not let the bad apple spoil the bunch.

'Cheers' to that!

wildflowers said:... A mention of this can somehow be put on this thread to ward off some of those offenders?? ...

The only thing I can think of is to advertise up front that each particular swap has particular expectations, and that many swaps will only want members who offer "enough" fresh seeds that match the theme of the swap, that seem potentially desirable to some representative members of the swap.

The host might urge individual potential joiners to "add more seeds" before accepting them into the swap.

The host might coach potential members that THIS swap asked for fresher seeds, or bigger pkts, or more variety, or more unusual seeds, or specific-theme seeds. Then reject them or suggest other recurring swaps they might fit into better.

That's a delicate process and could cause hard feelings or charges of favoritism ... but I think it's inescapable. We might find some inoffensive language that means "Moochers not welcome", but sounds better.

I bet that there will be more innocent people taking home more than they gave away, than there will be people who deliberately set out to "game the system". We should have ways to coach them how to be better swappers - closer to "traders", or closer to "generous people" than to "greedy grabbers"

Ideally, thinking about it now and thinking up polite processes will mean we DON'T have to think much about bad apples DURING swaps.

Hey, if there are some loose "give-away" swaps and many specialized, "mostly-fair-trade" swaps, Greedy Seeders will have to play fair in the specialized "fair" swaps or they'll get on a list and be banned from the "give-away" swaps! Maybe having many swaps, and many KINDS of swaps, all under one roof, will make the "bad apple" phenomenon self-solving.

The up-front screening of new members' OFFER lists could catch unintentional freeloaders, or the host might make special rules like "You CAN join, but YOU are limited to 2 requests until you come up with more to offer or people ask for at least 5 of what you offered".

And it brings up a question that might be different for each swap.
Must joiners show a complete or adequate OFFER list BEFORE they join? .

Or might some swaps have a two-step joining process?
First express interest and start adding to an offer list for that swap.
See other people's Offer lists, maybe Wish lists, and keep adding to one's Offer list.

THEN members would start to be accepted by the host, and commit to the swap, and presumably commit to NOT drastically withdraw too many of what they offered. (Like removing more than 30% of what you offered without similar additions might count as joining under false pretenses - and dropping out would be encouraged by the host.).

In contrast ...

I hope there are some swaps that lean toward "share the seeds freely" more than concern with enforcing fairness. It might spread around older seeds and common seeds, and perhaps self-saved seeds of dubious isolation ... not worth TRADING for precious or rare seed types, but welcome to beginners or someone just wanting to try short rows of some veggie varieties they wouldn't have bought a full-size, full-price packet of.

We may think that anyone joining such a swap can "JUST" add 5 or 10 seed types from their stash ... but not everyone who would like to trade for a few seeds already has a seed-a-holic's stash. But if we can tempt them into a relaxed swap one year, many of them will be seed-addicts by next year, and THEN bring lots of new seeds to trade.

(It would be up to each host whether or not to make them first go order some seeds so they have something to divide up and put into an Offer list. Maybe each new ATP member gets one or two free admissions to a relaxed swap? Once there are some recurring swaps, that would be easy to negotiate with Dave.)

Such a swap would have to warn members that they may be donating the seeds they offer, and may or may not find as many things they want back, as they gave. That swap's host might (or might not) check a master list of "selfish seed grabbers" and exclude anyone with a pattern of offering bare minimums, but grabbing fat maximums.

@RickCorey - I think you're missing a "/" in the brackets in your last paragraph. You have a lot of really good points. I'm hoping that things work out and there are no moochers, but I have a feeling there will be and some of your ideas about the host setting up rules about how much you need to contribute to participate might be critical components of successful swaps going forward.

IF we have issues with moochers and it becomes problematic, I would request that, at that time we re-consider the idea of "controlled trading" that was discussed previously.

One thing I'm finding hard to determine is how much of my seed to reserve for any given swap. I'm still trying to understand the rules, but I think that all seeds declared for a particular swap are given away, so people who offered 50 packs will end up with the same number of packets as people who offered 2 packs. Over time, that can lead to disgruntled members. I like the idea of set minimums. If there was a set minimum such as "You must have atleast 20 packets to contribute", then that might give people some estimate of how many packets to contribute to that swap and how many they can reserve for another that they may wish to participate in.

I really hope all seeds (even those not requested) do not need to be sent. That means I'll probably get a lot of seed I don't want/need if they divvy the unclaimed seeds up evenly. I really only want the seeds I asked for.

If all offered seed must be sent then people should have the option of NOT getting seed they didn't specifically request.

I agree with Elana. I wouldn't know what to do with seed I didn't ask for.

I agree with Elena as well -- but I don't believe the intention is that all seeds in your "have" list get sent in, just that they get sent in if someone requests them. @Dave ?

No, of course only the seeds that are requested will need to be sent.

If you have 10 packets of zinnia and 3 are requested, you send the 3 and keep the 7.

I believe it means they are available to be requested.

sorry I cross posted , I type slow

Cinda

Thanks for the clarification, Dave.

Thanks, DogsNDaylilies, I added the [ / u ] that was missing.

I think you're right that AS TIME PASSES , we'll learn more about what each swap needs, for rules, and what universal rules are needed, and software features to tweak or request.

My thinking is that offering and making available is (in this Beta Swap) the "promise". Or maybe the things you list as "available" just before the swap starts officially. Those, if anyone requests them, we promised to have available and mailed out by whatever date.

The ones not requested, each trader will keep (unless some host sets up a "Bottom of the Barrel" phase for junk-seed-sharing).

Or some themed swap might declare in it's rules some category like "donate seeds to XYZ good cause", and then traders could choose to send any left-over offerings or unlisted-re-traded-whatevers to that cause. Or brand-new seeds, collected fresh this year!

I would volunteer to print up and cut up hundreds of small slips like "Gift from Dave's Swaps" to be inserted into all such resealable pkts, with the ATP Seed-Swap URL, the name of the themed swap and host, and maybe some polite version of "we know these may be old and the ID may be illegible, ambiguous or dubious, but we hope you'll get some nice plants from them. You can always trade for FRESHER seeds here" and list the URL.

Or is that too-blatent proselytizing?

I have some deep-rooted desire to pimp my seeds. And encourage others to do so!

LOL -- I wonder how everyone did that requested my "Blue Peter" beans after I pimped them last year??

It's amazing what people will request if you take the time to say why you like it so much yourself!

And Salvia clevlandii. RisingCreek almost came out and said "they stink BAD!" , but the photo was amazing and after all, good or bad smells are matters of OPINION ...

I expect that many of my Brasssica seeds sit around for a year or two before someone decides to set out some new baby greens for salsd or garnish ... then maybe lets them grow bigger and makes soup or stir-fry ... then maybe go to seed ... you never know.

I grew quite a few of your brassicas this year -- but unfortunately they mainly fed the cabbage worms and slugs... my bad!!

The good news is that I still have seed left for next year, maybe I'll do better at the pest prevention in 2016....

>> they mainly fed the cabbage worms and slugs.

I know whatcha mean. We must have the HEALTHIEST slugs in the world!

But don't think of it as mistake - think of them as "trap crops". You diverted lots of slugs and cabbage worms away from OTHER crops!

>> I still have seed left for next year,

That's the main reason I usually put TWO labels in each pkt. I try to avoid carrying muddy, rained-on seed pkts back into my main seed Stash. So I only take outside as much as I plan to sow that day. I need one label outside, in addition to the one left inside. So I put two labels in each pkt.

Thank you for clarifying a few things. Now that I know I won't necessarily be sending in "all" the seeds I offer I'm willing to offer more. I'm one of the people who will be asking for less than I'm willing to give out. I like the idea that everything I send in is going to someone who really wants it.

Hey Dee, what's with the skeletons?.

I am really new to Seed Swaps, so this is a learning process for me.
I would be happy with one or two of my wants in return for whatever is chosen from my very small list of haves. I hope to become a seed saver for a better selection to offer next year.
I look forward to learning from this great group of seed savers.