Adding Seeds Directly from the Plant Database

[This is different from one of the first slides...that one was adding it from your seed list, I think.]
[I like Dave's current system of adding, by the way, just keep in mind that I'm adding ALL of the slides from my presentation for you all to view.]

[and, last but not least......]

Other Things to Consider

- Where should members go to view other members' current and previous trade lists? Should these be private, public, or the choice of each individual member?

- Organizers are encouraged to provide guidelines and to recommend or require certain packaging types for people to send seeds to them in. (Regular envelopes can be a nightmare, but padded envelopes and boxes work well.) Also, Sharpie marks can rub off easily—stickers or other labeling methods may work better.

That wraps up my PowerPoint Presentation!

I put a lot of time and thought into this to try and make it easier for everyone who participates. If I were better at programming (my skills are very rudamentary and awkward), I would create it and let you all pick it apart and see what you do/don't like. It would take me aeons to attempt to program something like this, though. I'm nowhere near the programmer that Dave is, so I'm left with only my words and graphics to convey my thoughts. (Thank you, again, Dave, for all of your hard work on programming this, however it turns out! )

I don't know if I'm missing a slide or two, but there should have been one about adding tracking numbers. This was an idea brought up by someone ( @RickCorey ?) that I wanted, too. I envision a field for tracking numbers (and/or tracking links) to be offered, too. I think it best to make this an optional field so it doesn't discourage people who don't have the time or ability to manually input a bunch of tracking numbers for people.

One spot where tracking numbers could go is directly into the list of seeds being swapped (once the swap has been closed and the rest of the list is unalterable). I'm sure there are other spots it could go. As long as it's easy to access, that's what's important.

DogsNDaylilies said:Adding Seeds Directly from the Plant Database

[This is different from one of the first slides...that one was adding it from your seed list, I think.]
[I like Dave's current system of adding, by the way, just keep in mind that I'm adding ALL of the slides from my presentation for you all to view.]

By the way, the two places where this sort of 'add seed' list would appear (directly from database and also in 'my seed list') would have the option of 'Want' (in the example, you see it shows 'Have). I had hoped this would create a special 'want' list for seeds for each user that would be easily accessible for others right in the users Plant Lists--just like it does for plants--so that even people NOT in the swaps (ex: people who are in the 'Plant Swap' forum) can see what you have/want.

...it might also help to have a 'General Info' section that each user can post some brief comments in. For example, I might want users to know that 'I send my seeds in small, 2" x 4" baggies' or that 'I'm willing to re-package seeds--just ask!' or something else that is more general and doesn't make sense to add to every single listing.

Wow! You really have put a ton of thought into this! Nice work!! I read through it all (well most since some slides were impossible to read on my phone) and the only thing I didn't get was how to actually trade seeds. I get asking another member for something but how can I offer them something? I don't know what they want. Even if they have a wish list that probably doesn't include all possible seeds they'd like to receive (mine won't). And if I'm listing 50 different things do I offer all of them? I don't have an alternative system thought up but that just seems too cumbersome if you have a large swap with 50-100 people.

bxncbx said:Wow! You really have put a ton of thought into this! Nice work!! I read through it all (well most since some slides were impossible to read on my phone) and the only thing I didn't get was how to actually trade seeds. I get asking another member for something but how can I offer them something? I don't know what they want. Even if they have a wish list that probably doesn't include all possible seeds they'd like to receive (mine won't). And if I'm listing 50 different things do I offer all of them? I don't have an alternative system thought up but that just seems too cumbersome if you have a large swap with 50-100 people.

Thank you! To hopefully answer your question...

Users would have wish lists that they keep as up-to-date as possible. (Dave tackled this with a thread, for now, but I would like to see this in multiple ways:

1) In plant lists (when you add a plant to your plant list, you've probably noticed tha the database tells you how many people 'have' it and how many people 'want' it....this would be fantastic for people adding seeds because they can see, immediately, who 'wants' what they are about to list that they 'have':


2) The dashboard could have a 'search' feature where you can type in a word and find out who, among all of the swaps, is offering what you want. This same idea could be applied to 'Wants'...

3) Each swap that you belong to could have a comprehensive list of all available seeds that you can click on (and, from that screen, you could "Offer a Trade") and could also have a comprehensive 'Wish List' for all of its members, too, that would look like the 'available' list:

(see bottom, right-hand scroll list)


[Edited to clarify that places that have a 'have' list can also have a 'want' list...]

Oh!! I forgot another thing and it's kind of an important part, LoL! ...

This is VERY rudimentary and is not cosmetically beautiful in any way, but it DOES show an idea of what I thought it might look like when you have incoming (etc.) trades:



Trade Screen

Here's where I'm getting lost. If there is just one big list of available seeds and one list of wants, how does that help individual trades? I don't know who is offering what and who wants what.

Also, how can I add a plant I've never heard of to my wish list? Part of the fun of swaps is discovering a new plant that you'd like to try. If people only offer me things based on what I have on my want list I'll potentially be missing out on new plants, introductions, etcetera just because I never knew they existed.

Elena,

Great questions. Here are just my thoughts:

bxncbx said:Here's where I'm getting lost. If there is just one big list of available seeds and one list of wants, how does that help individual trades? I don't know who is offering what and who wants what.

I'm not sure how to answer this because I wasn't intending for it to be one giant list of seeds. I was hoping that each swap would have a 'general listing' of seeds by all members, but that by clicking on an individual member's name/profile, you would see just their list of have/want seeds.

bxncbx said:
Also, how can I add a plant I've never heard of to my wish list? Part of the fun of swaps is discovering a new plant that you'd like to try. If people only offer me things based on what I have on my want list I'll potentially be missing out on new plants, introductions, etcetera just because I never knew they existed.

I would hope that everyone would feel free to offer things that might not be on others' lists. I certainly wasn't intending the wish lists to be something people had to stick to exclusively. To further highlight the opennness for different types of seeds, this could go back to the part I suggested where there could be a little 'General Info' message for each member. In it, you could say something like "Feel free to offer me things that aren't on my wishlist" or "open to ALL native wildflowers", or "I'm only looking for seeds for edibles", etc...

Great proposal, DnD! You've obviously followed a lot of trains of thought far down the tracks. Thanks for doing all that work! I never gave any thought to the Swap-Start screens or any multi-swap dashboard / inventory system.

I collected some comments or questions ...

1.
>> 6) Seeds must be divided and labeled PRIOR to shipping

I'd suggest "Seeds must be divided and labeled PRIOR to OFFERING."
That's a mistake I plan NOT to make twice!


2.
>> (and packing list should be included)

What were you thinking of as a packing list? My past practice has been to put a detailed list in each baggie of what is going to that indivdual trade-receiver. Does the organizer really need an all-inclusive packing list, or is that unneeded overhead for traders?


3.
I agree that co-organizer(s) should be supported. In fully-manual swaps, multiple "helpers" can be invaluable. Or maybe with Dave's software, hosts won't need helpers.

I imagine that there will also evolve a group of "swap angels" who like to help out and answer questions in any swap. But will there be a thread for each swap limited to the members of that swap? I don't know. Except for a thread for Wish Lists, I don't think anyone has yet said there HAS TO be a thread associated with each swap. But that sounds familiar and comfortable. Otherwise, how will we pimp our seeds?


4.
Sometimes it seemed that your images were tracking total numbers of seeds, not total number of packets. That's a complexity I would be eager to avoid!


5.
In the home page for individual swaps, I'd hope for as many Search and Filter features as practical. And the abiltiy to request trades from within the search-results screen. Or at add checkmarks like "come back later and compare these selected ones".

Search by plant name.

Filter on:
- an individual trader-offerer or "all traders"
- year (fresher than or equal to "packed for 2013"
- type of seed (petunia, lettuce, maybe even "greens", "vines" or "perennials", some day, if Dave runs out of other features to add!

Ideally, in the search results screen, show whether or not I have already requested that seed in this swap!

Otherwise I constantly say "OH GREAT!! I've wanted that one for years!" ... request it ... add to my private paper list of incoming trades expected ... find that I ALREADY requested it ... un-request the second one. That could be called "the senility flag".


6.
The "low" indicator is an interesting idea for managing "inventory".

I just know that I want one screen (like MY list of all my seeds entered for swapping in any swap, with:

My Whole Stash:
- My total # of pkts remaining (including those made available to pending swaps)
- My total # pkts NOT committed to any swap
- # committed to EACH swap, as follows:
- for each swap:
- - - total # pkts commited to that swap
- - - # pkts already requested by that swap
- - - # pkts still available TO BE requested by that swap
That could change color when it got down to 1-3 pkts.

Or we might filter or sort on # remaining, to see the "skinny" ones.


7.
One of your images ("Offer a Trade"?) seemed to suggest that each trade would be negotiated one-on-one, with a member offering X and requesting Y, and the trade would only occur if they found a match or clicked on "freebie".

I'm hoping that was one of the early ideas, or a non-GROUP-swap idea. When I go into a group swap, I look forward with relief to skipping that almost-impossible step.

Maybe this is something that only some swaps would do. For example, people trading very rare or expensive seeds or plants, might want a more organized way to find and arrange one-on-one swaps, even if at the end of the month, everyone sent their trades to a central point where the host tosses one-on-one baggies into outgoing boxes.


8.
I agree with you that tracking numbers are good to have, but also agree they should be optional. If somone has to type accurately a (?) 20-digit number, please make it optional!

Or, maybe the Universal Rule should be that the organizer MAY require tracking numbers but may make them optional. (Some traders will appreciate that they can copy-paste it ONCE into Dave's Swap Dbf, and then know where to find the unwieldy number when the @#$%^& USPS loses the box in the Christmas rush).

Great proposal, DnD! You've obviously followed a lot of trains of thought far down the tracks. Thanks for doing all that work! I never gave any thought to the Swap-Start screens or any multi-swap dashboard / inventory system.

I collected some comments or questions ...

1.
>> 6) Seeds must be divided and labeled PRIOR to shipping

I'd suggest "Seeds must be divided and labeled PRIOR to OFFERING."
That's a mistake I plan NOT to make twice!


2.
>> (and packing list should be included)

What were you thinking of as a packing list? My past practice has been to put a detailed list in each baggie of what is going to that indivdual trade-receiver. Does the organizer really need an all-inclusive packing list, or is that unneeded overhead for traders?


3.
I agree that co-organizer(s) should be supported. In fully-manual swaps, multiple "helpers" can be invaluable. Or maybe with Dave's software, hosts won't need helpers.

I imagine that there will also evolve a group of "swap angels" who like to help out and answer questions in any swap. But will there be a thread for each swap limited to the members of that swap? I don't know. Except for a thread for Wish Lists, I don't think anyone has yet said there HAS TO be a thread associated with each swap. But that sounds familiar and comfortable. Otherwise, how will we pimp our seeds?


4.
Sometimes it seemed that your images were tracking total numbers of seeds, not total number of packets. That's a complexity I would be eager to avoid!


5.
In the home page for individual swaps, I'd hope for as many Search and Filter features as practical. And the abiltiy to request trades from within the search-results screen. Or at add checkmarks like "come back later and compare these selected ones".

Search by plant name.

Filter on:
- an individual trader-offerer or "all traders"
- year (fresher than or equal to "packed for 2013"
- type of seed (petunia, lettuce, maybe even "greens", "vines" or "perennials", some day, if Dave runs out of other features to add!

Ideally, in the search results screen, show whether or not I have already requested that seed in this swap!

Otherwise I constantly say "OH GREAT!! I've wanted that one for years!" ... request it ... add to my private paper list of incoming trades expected ... find that I ALREADY requested it ... un-request the second one. That could be called "the senility flag".


6.
The "low" indicator is an interesting idea for managing "inventory".

I just know that I want one screen (like MY list of all my seeds entered for swapping in any swap, with:

My Whole Stash:
- My total # of pkts remaining (including those made available to pending swaps)
- My total # pkts NOT committed to any swap
- # committed to EACH swap, as follows:
- for each swap:
- - - total # pkts commited to that swap
- - - # pkts already requested by that swap
- - - # pkts still available TO BE requested by that swap
That could change color when it got down to 1-3 pkts.

Or we might filter or sort on # remaining, to see the "skinny" ones.


7.
One of your images ("Offer a Trade"?) seemed to suggest that each trade would be negotiated one-on-one, with a member offering X and requesting Y, and the trade would only occur if they found a match or clicked on "freebie".

I'm hoping that was one of the early ideas, or a non-GROUP-swap idea. When I go into a group swap, I look forward with relief to skipping that almost-impossible step.

Maybe this is something that only some swaps would do. For example, people trading very rare or expensive seeds or plants, might want a more organized way to find and arrange one-on-one swaps, even if at the end of the month, everyone sent their trades to a central point where the host tosses one-on-one baggies into outgoing boxes.


8.
I agree with you that tracking numbers are good to have, but also agree they should be optional. If someone has to type accurately a (?) 20-digit number, please make it optional!

Or, maybe the Universal Rule should be that the organizer MAY require tracking numbers but may make them optional. (Some traders will appreciate that they can copy-paste it ONCE into Dave's Swap Dbf, and then know where to find the unwieldy number when the @#$%^& USPS loses the box in the Christmas rush).

RickCorey said:
1.
>> 6) Seeds must be divided and labeled PRIOR to shipping

I'd suggest "Seeds must be divided and labeled PRIOR to OFFERING."
That's a mistake I plan NOT to make twice!

I think that's a GREAT suggestion. I'm not sure how anyone would make that mandatory, but there is clearly a need for an FAQ/Helpful Hints feature somewhere. I included an FAQ on my idea for a Swap Home Page, but you're making me realize that there should probably be a master 'FAQ/Helpful Hints' page (or thread with a stick at the top) to tackle everything that comes up.


I love your 'Swap Angel's comment...I imagine there will definitely be people who will do just that. We have an amazing group of people here on ATP.

You had a lot of other great suggestions that pertain to either the programming end of things or general ideas that get into the nitty-gritty of things. I love that you're thinking that deeply. I have a headache at the moment, so I don't know that I'll express my own opinions yet on questions you've asked or comments you've made, but that's why there's this thread...with everyone's help, we can pull this together.

RickCorey said:

7.
One of your images ("Offer a Trade"?) seemed to suggest that each trade would be negotiated one-on-one, with a member offering X and requesting Y, and the trade would only occur if they found a match or clicked on "freebie".

I'm hoping that was one of the early ideas, or a non-GROUP-swap idea. When I go into a group swap, I look forward with relief to skipping that almost-impossible step.

Maybe this is something that only some swaps would do. For example, people trading very rare or expensive seeds or plants, might want a more organized way to find and arrange one-on-one swaps, even if at the end of the month, everyone sent their trades to a central point where the host tosses one-on-one baggies into outgoing boxes.

It might sound time-consuming, but I really don't think it is. The system would track what you have left and you would go hunting down the things you want and it would track what other people have left. It shouldn't be any more difficult than shopping for things on an online website, except here you're proposing and agreeing to trades instead of using money.

You're doing the bulk of the work by creating your seed lists and want lists. If you really don't care what you get in return, then you can just 'approve' all of the incoming trade requests without really looking at them much OR if you want to simply freebie seeds to people, you could click on 'counter-offer' to the requests and delete the item they are offering you so that you are giving them something for nothing (a 'freebie').

RickCorey said:
8.
I agree with you that tracking numbers are good to have, but also agree they should be optional. If somone has to type accurately a (?) 20-digit number, please make it optional!

Or, maybe the Universal Rule should be that the organizer MAY require tracking numbers but may make them optional. (Some traders will appreciate that they can copy-paste it ONCE into Dave's Swap Dbf, and then know where to find the unwieldy number when the @#$%^& USPS loses the box in the Christmas rush).

Agreed.


Glad to hear your insight!


[edited to change 'donate' to freebie for clarification]

>> If you really don't care what you get in return, then you can just 'approve' all of the incoming trade requests without really looking at them much OR if you want to simply donate seeds to people, you could click on 'counter-offer' to the requests and delete the item they are offering you so that you are giving them something for nothing (a 'donation').

That would make it possible for me to join such a swap, but mostly I would prefer to just give a bunch and expect to get a bunch.

Hmm, maybe it is more of an issue for swaps with no previously-established history. For example, I can join Ella's Piggy Swap without even looking at the signup list beucase I know I'll find as many as I want of most things I might want.

In a much smaller swap, your idea of one-for-one trades would address the concern that I might find many things I wanted. However, most or all of my seeds are common, so I';m mainly risking the postage (at least $10, probably $12). For that, I hope to get many common pkts, more than would easily be negotiated if I have to find something I want from each person who wants anything from me.

But I bet many ATP members are on the opposite end of the spectrum: common seeds don;t interest them, but finding that one rare thing they've been looking for for years would be worth negotiation and lengthy searching and postage.

And they might not want to let go of the three seeds they ever got from that painstaking cross unless they get back something of collector value.

Rick, I've been misplacing the word 'donation' previously. Shame on me. Some of my comments in this thread have said 'donation' when I meant 'freebie', I think. (Freebies are things you agree to on a one-on-one basis to give to someone else.)

I think there should also be an option to allow for 'donations' so that you could send in any extras that you have. I don't have a solid opinion on how this should be handled because I don't want the organizer to end up with a bunch of 'donated' seeds and not know who to give them to. The donations might be something that could be offered in a thread and then people could claim them if they wanted to and the person offering the donations could package them into the appropriate number of bags and send them in. (That would make people used to piggy swaps happy, I think.) I do think it best to find 'homes' for the seeds before they are all shipped off to the organizer, where possible, but if the organizer/members want to establish a method where the donations are spread out to everyone, that could be done on an individual swap basis and make that particular swap all that much more unique!

Maybe it's because I access this site from my phone but I'm not sure I could handle a large swap with only 1:1 trades. If I list 50 varieties of seed and 25 people try to make me an offer & I have to look at all those seed lists to try and find something to trade my phone will die! And everything is first come, first served so there's a chance that even if they had something it'd be gone before my phone charges back up. It would have to be either a focused swap or one with a limited number of participants.

On second thought it could work but only if there was a LONG period of time between when people stop adding to their list and the actual swapping begins.

By the way, when you talk about 'donations' as "someone asks for it and then gets it without a specific quid-pro-quo in return", that is the way I prefer to swap, and those are the swaps I would join. Better suited to fairly common seeds. My word would be "Oink" or "Request", meaning a request that's granted without a matching item specified in return".

Then there is a directed gift, where someone makes a specific offer, perhaps giving someone else first Dibbs if they join a certain swap. I'll call that "giving Dibbs" because it's an oddball notion.

Another usage is:

DogsNDaylilies said:...
I think there should also be an option to allow for 'donations' so that you could send in any extras that you have. ... (That would make people used to piggy swaps happy, I think.)

I recognize that as a "Bottom of the Barrel" junk-seed phase. I'm guessing that relatively few swaps will opt to offer that. It is a very different kind of swap, tending toward the Round-Robin set of vices and virtues. A big barrel of old who-knows-what dished out to who-knows-who. Not great, but at least it puts all the re-trading into one category that's easy to keep separate from WANTED seeds.

I try to avoid doing that, but fall to temptation more often than I resist.

DogsNDaylilies said:...
I do think it best to find 'homes' for the seeds before they are all shipped off to the organizer, where possible,

Agreed! That's the value of a swap vs. a round robin: you specify what you want.

bxncbx said:On second thought it could work but only if there was a LONG period of time between when people stop adding to their list and the actual swapping begins.

The original idea was 2-4 weeks.