The ATP Beta "First Swap" Swap: Make the swap "more" fair.

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Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Tip Photographer Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Hibiscus
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Horntoad
Nov 8, 2015 4:38 PM CST
@dave, there has been a lot of talk about making the swap fair and one to one trades etc.. In my past experience with the Piggy Swap I know that Ella set limits on request such as request per day or request from each individual. But the problem is that there was no "Trade Police" monitoring each request. With the system you have created it could be programed to limit how many request a person can make.
Here would be my suggestion. As I said in another post you should be able to request up to but no more than what you have to offer. So if you are only offering 5 packs the you should only be able to request 5 packs. If you have a 100 packs then you could request 100. The down side of this is the varieties each member offers.
Member one offers 4 packs each of 25 varieties and member two offers 100 pack of only 1 variety. Although both would be able to ask for 100 pack base on what they have to offer, number two is very unlikely to give away as many as they requested. So I would say add an additional limit of 5 request per varieties offered. So in this scenario member one would be able to request 100 packs and member two could request only 5 packs.

If a member offered 20 packs each of 5 varieties he/she would be able to request 25 packs.
5 varieties X 5 pack maximum per variety = 25 packs.

If a member offered 3 packs each of 4 varieties and 30 packs of 1 variety the he/she would be able to request 17 packs. They would get credit for all three pack on the four varieties that did not exceed the 5 pack limit and only a credit of 5 for the one that did exceed.

Looking at my own list, I am offering 109 packs of seed but using this formula I could only request 61 packs.

This would not be complicated for the traders since it would be programed into the system and limits would be controlled automatically by the system. Individual would not have to figure out there own limits or when to stop.
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Name: Elena
NYC (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Hybridizer Peonies Vegetable Grower Seed Starter Organic Gardener
Composter Container Gardener Celebrating Gardening: 2015 I helped beta test the first seed swap
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bxncbx
Nov 8, 2015 4:50 PM CST
Jay I'd never really thought about it before but your example made it hit home. I really like your idea!!
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
I helped beta test the first seed swap
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DogsNDaylilies
Nov 8, 2015 6:27 PM CST
What if I want to trade 10 of my packets of corn seed (10 per packet) for 1 of your packets of 100 pumpkin seeds. We each got the same amount, but YOU'VE been docked 10 packets and I've only been docked one.
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
I helped beta test the first seed swap
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DogsNDaylilies
Nov 8, 2015 6:29 PM CST
...That's why I feel we need a system where people can 'police' themselves, so they can deem what constitutes a 'fair' trade to them and they don't have to worry about how many packets are involved, it's all in 'what you're trading for what'.
Name: Alana H
(Zone 7a)
Frogs and Toads Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter I helped beta test the first seed swap Keeper of Poultry Garden Ideas: Level 1
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poisondartfrog
Nov 8, 2015 6:42 PM CST
It has not been stated in this swap, but most swaps do not permit one person to snag all of one particular seed.
Name: Alana H
(Zone 7a)
Frogs and Toads Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter I helped beta test the first seed swap Keeper of Poultry Garden Ideas: Level 1
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poisondartfrog
Nov 8, 2015 6:44 PM CST
Also, you are not directly trading anything. You are requesting what you want. The person you request from may or may not ask for your corn seeds or anything else you have.
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
I helped beta test the first seed swap
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DogsNDaylilies
Nov 8, 2015 6:49 PM CST
How do you decide who gets to choose first? If there are 100 people participating and I'm at spot 100, the chances there's something there that I want is very slim. (Sorry, I'm still reading the Piggy Swap rules, so correct me if I'm wrong about how it works here. If it doesn't work that way, how does the organizer choose which 'oinks' to honor and which ones to say 'sorry, that's already spoken for' to?)
[Last edited by DogsNDaylilies - Nov 8, 2015 6:50 PM (+)]
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Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Tip Photographer Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Hibiscus
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Horntoad
Nov 8, 2015 6:55 PM CST
DogsNDaylilies said:What if I want to trade 10 of my packets of corn seed (10 per packet) for 1 of your packets of 100 pumpkin seeds. We each got the same amount, but YOU'VE been docked 10 packets and I've only been docked one.


The swap that I believe dave is setting up is more inline with what most of us are use to. I fully understand what you are looking for, but it is not for me. Like @bxncbx said in another thread it sounds "fair and sensible" but there could be a lot of hurt fellings. I would be upset if I asked several people for a pack of seeds and was told "sorry you can't have it because there is nothing on your list that I want."
Your system is a trade system and the system that most of us are use to is more of a sharing system. I don't need to feel like I made a "fair" trade. If I can give away all my extras seeds that I have no intention of planting and come away with just a few that I really want then I will be a happy gardener.
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Name: Elena
NYC (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Hybridizer Peonies Vegetable Grower Seed Starter Organic Gardener
Composter Container Gardener Celebrating Gardening: 2015 I helped beta test the first seed swap
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bxncbx
Nov 8, 2015 6:55 PM CST
The Piggy Swap was first person who asks, gets. But you were limited to a certain number of swaps per day so you had to prioritize what you wanted.
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
I helped beta test the first seed swap
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DogsNDaylilies
Nov 8, 2015 6:57 PM CST
poisondartfrog said:It has not been stated in this swap, but most swaps do not permit one person to snag all of one particular seed.


I'm not sure why that has to be a hard and fast rule.... Shrug! ....but that wasn't quite what I meant.

Let me explain it this way...


If Mary has 10 packets of 10 watermelon seeds per packet...

Joe has 4 packets of 25 pumpkin seeds....

Mary wants to trade 5 of her watermelon seed packets (total of 50 seeds) to Joe for 2 of his pumpkin seed packets (total of 50 seeds)....

Mary gets marked off as having 'oinked' 2 packets whereas Joe gets marked off as having 'oinked' 5 packets. I would imagine that Joe would consider that pretty unfair.


(We should really have our own terms for this so that Ella's swap stays her own, unique thing...she seems like a cool person with her own, unique personality that shines through in the whole 'theme' of the Piggy Swap....I feel awkward stealing her phrases when they are so uniquely hers.)
Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Tip Photographer Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Hibiscus
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Horntoad
Nov 8, 2015 6:58 PM CST
DogsNDaylilies said:How do you decide who gets to choose first? If there are 100 people participating and I'm at spot 100, the chances there's something there that I want is very slim. (Sorry, I'm still reading the Piggy Swap rules, so correct me if I'm wrong about how it works here. If it doesn't work that way, how does the organizer choose which 'oinks' to honor and which ones to say 'sorry, that's already spoken for' to?)

You honor all oinks, first come first serve. You ask me for a pack of my cucumbers I say fine. I will look at your list and see if there is anything that I may like, but if there is not I will still give you mine. I know that even though you don't have what I want, I will still be able to get something I want from someone else.

wildflowersoftexas.com
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Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
I helped beta test the first seed swap
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DogsNDaylilies
Nov 8, 2015 7:09 PM CST
Horntoad said:
"I would be upset if I asked several people for a pack of seeds and was told "sorry you can't have it because there is nothing on your list that I want."
Your system is a trade system and the system that most of us are use to is more of a sharing system. I don't need to feel like I made a "fair" trade. If I can give away all my extras seeds that I have no intention of planting and come away with just a few that I really want then I will be a happy gardener.


I see where you are coming from and it is a noble idea. I don't discredit the notion of wanting to give up seeds that you no longer need...but that is why there would be 'donations' and 'freebies' allowed. Everything works alongside each other. Once people in swaps get to know each other and know who might be up for more random swaps, etc...they can choose to simply "freebie" or "donate" stuff to others with no expectation of something in return. You might get to your Trade List one morning and find out that Donald has offered to 'freebie' you a packet of 80 morning glory seeds. That's what will eventually happen once people get settled into their swaps and get to know the people in their swaps better. They'll know what others might like, they might donate, they might not. But the method I'm describing also includes people who might have seeds that they definitely want something good for.

I think I noticed someone with hybrid sempervivum seeds on their list. I know that if that were me, I wouldn't be satisfied getting common marigold seeds in return for that.

And consider the people that might only participate in a swap round once every once in awhile....if they bring all of their good stuff to the table and are 'forced' to trade it all off to people who have nothing they deem desirable in return...not only is it bad for them for that round, but they may not participate in future rounds, so they've given off their goods and never have the chance to get anything 'good' in return.
Name: Arlene
Grantville, GA (Zone 8a)
Greenhouse Region: Georgia Garden Sages Organic Gardener Beekeeper Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Cut Flowers Composter Keeper of Poultry Keeps Goats Avid Green Pages Reviewer
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abhege
Nov 8, 2015 7:11 PM CST
Also, I could be mistaken but, usually you can only ask for one packet at a time. Last year I "oinked" for some beans from WeedWhacker. I really like that particular variety and wanted as many as I could get so I asked for more if there were any left at the end. But I did not request them all up front.
Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Tip Photographer Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Hibiscus
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Horntoad
Nov 8, 2015 7:19 PM CST
abhege said:Also, I could be mistaken but, usually you can only ask for one packet at a time. Last year I "oinked" for some beans from WeedWhacker. I really like that particular variety and wanted as many as I could get so I asked for more if there were any left at the end. But I did not request them all up front.

Correct, if someone had 10 packs each of 10 varieties, you could ask for one of each variety, but not all 10 of one variety.

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Name: Arlene
Grantville, GA (Zone 8a)
Greenhouse Region: Georgia Garden Sages Organic Gardener Beekeeper Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Cut Flowers Composter Keeper of Poultry Keeps Goats Avid Green Pages Reviewer
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abhege
Nov 8, 2015 7:20 PM CST
DogsNDaylilies said:
I think I noticed someone with hybrid sempervivum seeds on their list. I know that if that were me, I wouldn't be satisfied getting common marigold seeds in return for that.



I still don't think you quite understand. Whatever people are offering, they are offering to anyone participating, not just because they have something they want. If someone is offering hybrid sempervivum seed, they are offering it because someone might want some. Anyone. Not just the someones with something you want. The person who would like them may not have anything he/she wants but she is still able to get them.

DogsNDaylilies said: And consider the people that might only participate in a swap round once every once in awhile....if they bring all of their good stuff to the table and are 'forced' to trade it all off to people who have nothing they deem desirable in return...not only is it bad for them for that round, but they may not participate in future rounds, so they've given off their goods and never have the chance to get anything 'good' in return.


Bring all their good stuff to the table? They are bringing EXTRA seeds to the table. What's good to one could be crap to another. There are lots of people who bring in rare, or extra special species but nothing I would ever be interest in. I want common veggies and flowers.

[Last edited by abhege - Nov 8, 2015 7:23 PM (+)]
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Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1
I helped beta test the first seed swap
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DogsNDaylilies
Nov 8, 2015 7:28 PM CST
abhege said:

I still don't think you quite understand.


It's not that I don't understand. What I was trying to be clear about was that wasn't what I had in mind. It was a difference of opinion in how it should be handled, not a lack of understanding. Smiling
Name: Elena
NYC (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Hybridizer Peonies Vegetable Grower Seed Starter Organic Gardener
Composter Container Gardener Celebrating Gardening: 2015 I helped beta test the first seed swap
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bxncbx
Nov 8, 2015 7:52 PM CST
We aren't really all that far apart I just realized.

DND, if most people do freebies with very few mutual trades you have a version of the Piggy Swap.

And the Piggy Swap had 1:1 trades although we didn't think of them as such. Someone would ask me for something on my list & I would say yes & then immediately ask them for something on their list.

So really it is all in what rules you set up to ensure that the majority of people come out of the swap feeling like they got a good deal!

Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Tip Photographer Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Hibiscus
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Horntoad
Nov 8, 2015 7:57 PM CST
bxncbx said:
And the Piggy Swap had 1:1 trades although we didn't think of them as such. Someone would ask me for something on my list & I would say yes & then immediately ask them for something on their list.

But what if that person did not have anything that you wanted, would you still give them the seeds they requested?


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Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Vegetable Grower
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member
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RickCorey
Nov 8, 2015 9:33 PM CST
Jay: yes.

There were enough hard-core seedaholics in that swap that could just COUNT ON there being plenty of anything you were looking for, except for very exotic and specific wishes.

Plenty of people there followed Nature's policy with seeds: have lots, scatter many freely, trust that enough will come back and take root to keep the yard green.

And due to @JonnaSudenius ' participation in Ella's swap and annual social event , even people wanting exotic and rare things knew they had a great chance of finding some. When swaps limit themselves to USA postal addresses only, and lose Jonna's participation, they reduce the variety of seeds offered by many thousands.

RE the original post, there are some good ideas there for encouraging "balance".
That may be more important for small swaps or less-well-established swaps.
As long as the fairness doesn't prevent any trading from happening at all!

But I suggest one tweak: assume that only half of what someone lists is going to be wanted.

If you list 100 pkts available for trade (no more than 5 of one kind "count"), maybe that should entitle you to only 50 requests TO START WITH. Now you can request seeds at the start of the swap and be likely to get enough of what you want that you expect it to be worthwhile participating.

(If you list mostly common seeds or old vegetable seeds, like me, there will be some swaps that might not welcome you in the future.)

Then, every request OVER 50 that you FILL gives you one extra request to make.

It would guarantee that anyone requesting more than half as many packets as he offered was getting NO MORE THAN he actually gave out.

That would make for pretty tight "fairness", and make trading rather difficult after the first half was committed. Most people would be at or near their current limits, and need to be Oinked from before they could Oink again. Stalled, or gridlock.

It would to allow trades "pending". Joe wants Seed X from Sally, but Joe only offered 40 and already requested 20. Now he has to wiat until someone asks for another seed he has offered.

OR, and maybe this is the genius of the "fairness" idea, Joe can offer two more pkts of anything, and be allowed to make one more trade. And he'll see vividly the advantage of offering something that someone WANTS.

It would assure that numbers of pkts swapped stayed fairly even, with some looseness in the first half of trading, but nothing can address pkt size and age and value differences.

Or maybe the "fairness counting" would apply only to trades whose Offerer marked them as "for Even Trading only". Then you could only request as many "ET" seeds as someone had already had requested from yourself ... or something.

But there has to be looseness to get the trading started. If you can only request as many as you've already given away, then no one would be allowed to make the first trade.
Name: Ronnie
Southeastern PA (Zone 6b)
Morning Glories Garden Photography Region: Pennsylvania Charter ATP Member Orchids Dragonflies
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Photo Contest Winner: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1 I helped beta test the first seed swap Bookworm Bee Lover
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luvsgrtdanes
Nov 8, 2015 9:51 PM CST
The more I think about this the only fair thing to do is just send all the seeds to me Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing
It happens in a flash, but the memory of it last forever. It can not be borrowed or stolen, and it is of no earthly good until it is given away. So if in your hurry you meet someone who is too weary to smile, leave him one of yours, for no one needs a smile quite as much as he who has none to give...

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