Jay, I think the first motivation or plan for "you can't request more than have been requested FROM you" was to apply it at the END of the swap, mainly to filter out Greedy Seeders who intentionally offer little but request lots.

I think you're suggesting using that same policy of "request no more than requested" to increase fairness of access to the most popular seeds offered, ... influenced by the popularity of what you offer.

Maybe that is a good idea, I would have to think about it.

- - - -

If so, maybe there would be some value for a two-phase approach in some swaps ... I'm just spit-balling here.

Say the first D days of some swaps were focused on fair access to the most-desired items.
The host could select whether or how strongly to go in this direction.

It would have low daily limits.
Maybe reward those who get oinked firstest and fastest, since clearly they offered the tastiest stuff.

After that first phase, re-focus the swap onto convenience. Increase or remove the daily limit and fall back on total-number-of-requests as the main fairness criterion for the second phase.

It's just an idea. The host could select a daily limit for the first D days, the daily limit AFTER Day D, and a value for "D".

I don't think that would be TOO complex for most hosts ... but I do love details.

Maybe Dave could give hosts a "swap-startup Wizard". First pick a "flavor" of swap, and Dave would fill in each field automatically with representative values for that KIND of swap.

Then the host could edit those choices, after seeing what the typical format would be for the kind of swap she wanted to host.

1. Small swap with tightly focused theme, for Collectors who know exactly what rare and unusual things they want, and just hope any are offered and they get a fair shot at getting that rare thing. They want what they want and not much else. Low daily limits that last through 90% of the swap.

2. Big generic swap with lots of fairly available stuff for lots of people. For example, "vegetables". Fairness still matters a little because things like pkt size and freshness still matter, and there is always something that "goes first" even if nothing is Collector-Level rare.

Medium daily limits that ramp down or turn off before the swap is 1/2 over.

3. Bottom-of-the-barrel swaps, where nothing is too old and no ID is too vague. Cross-pollinated self-collected seeds are fine. Re-trades OK. Large daily limits that go away after the first week.

P.S.

The limits for this Beta swap hardly matter at all, in my opinion. "Whatever" is fine.

I agree with Lynne that the general answer is a tough one.

I agree with Dave that no one number fits all swaps (and maybe no one formula can fit all swaps, since different swaps will have different goals).

As long as the first release for swaps after the Beta Swap has some flexibility that lets hosts refine the rules, or make their own mistakes, the first 2-5 swaps will teach us a lot about what works well for what kinds of swaps.

CAN we design this before seeing what works and what doesn't?

Got lost for a moment there. Will only go back to the idea of simplicity to keep the interest in the swap high. I know I already mentioned this but if it gets too complicated with too many rules, many will be hesitant or more apprehensive to join the swaps.

Rick, you have some good ideas, as usual.

RickCorey said:
I think you're suggesting using that same policy of "request no more than requested" to increase fairness of access to the most popular seeds offered. Maybe that is a good idea, I would have to think about it.

Not exactly. "request no more than requested" doesn't set limits. What I'm saying is everyone has a starting of 5 dibs, but can "earn extra" dibs if they have received more than 5 request from their list. But even this would have limits, which I would set at a maximum of 10 or 15 total dibs including the original 5. It would allow those who are receiving a lot of request a chance to get a few extras, which would improve their chance of getting back what they are giving out, but still setting a reasonable limit.

wildflowers said: I know I already mentioned this but if it gets too complicated with too many rules, many will be hesitant or more apprehensive to join the swaps.

I totally agree with this and... I think trying to be completely "fair" in a group trade is unrealistic. I like the idea of everyone having a certain number of requests for the first day or several days, then opening it up and allowing however many requests; perhaps limiting the total number of requests per person to a certain number (which might be based on how many packets could you fit in a mailer box or envelope, whatever is being used).

Weedwhacker said:

I totally agree with this and... I think trying to be completely "fair" in a group trade is unrealistic. I like the idea of everyone having a certain number of requests for the first day or several days, then opening it up and allowing however many requests; perhaps limiting the total number of requests per person to a certain number (which might be based on how many packets could you fit in a mailer box or envelope, whatever is being used).

Nobody is talking about be "completely" fair since that would be impossible. But we can try and make it a little more fair. Doing so does not have to make it complicated. Whether we go with a flat per day or a formula like I suggested it will be automated. There would not be anything for you to have to keep track of. The Piggy Swap had a lot of rules like picks per day, how many request per individual, how many request per thread and others. All of which you had to track yourself. You had to list your plants and number of packs and manually and edit how many you had every time you gave one away. You also had to manually keep track of all the request you were giving and those you were receiving. Even with all the rules and manually work each user had to do, it was still a very popular swap. The beauty of what Dave is creating is that it is mostly automated so there is little for us to do except enjoy the swap.

Good point, Jay. I think a certain amount of fairness should be considered.

I'm sure much of what we are suggesting has everything to do with what Dave is able to make possible.

My point is that when there are so many stipulations, such as how many seeds we can get for how many seeds we can offer and how much time we have to give or get those seeds, multiplied by how many people are joining the swap, contingent upon how many people want your seeds... etc., etc., it gets very intimidating.

Truth be know, RE the piggy swap, over the years I've talked to many people who were way too afraid to join due to so many rules; it took me several years to get up the courage myself. Just saying.

I absolutely think the "automated" part is wonderful; and I may have a totally different take on swapping than other people do, I'm not a tremendously experienced seed swapper. Basically, if I have extra seeds I'd be happy if someone else could use them; and if I can get some new seeds in the process, as in a group swap, then that's a major plus. In a more specific type of swap -- say, just people with daylily seeds -- it might be desirable to have more "even" trading. I honestly don't know, just offering up my opinion -- I'm perfectly okay with however we work it out.

I wonder if this is something the organizer should have some control over based on the nature of their individual swap, how their past swaps have gone, etc.

Certainly, though, for the first couple of swaps, an organizer won't know the dynamics of the group, so I think a preset algorithm is smart.

I also think having the first day be fewer requests is smart.

I suggest that the algorithm tie in your new star feature, Dave, so that a member's list of (remaining) favorites appears in their wish list for the day and they can select up to the maximum number to request.

****************
Example idea

One way of doing this might be to only show the most top-starred items in a members list:
For example, let's say Joe Shmoe has 50 things on his wish list and they happen to be evenly distributed in stars (10 have 5 stars, 10 have 4 stars, and so on. ..) This particular swap allows 6 requests per day, so the system would do the following:

Day 1: Joes list of 10 5-star seeds would show up, but he would only be able to select 6 of them.

Day 2: (Assuming Joe got all 6 requested seed packs...) The remaining four 5-star seeds would display as well as all of the 4-star seeds. He would need to choose up to 6 (presumably, he would choose the four 5-star seeds and two of the 4-start seeds from his list)

Day 3: (assuming he got every one of his requests) the remaining eight items on his list of 4-star favorites would display for his to choose from. ...
**************

It's just one idea, but the major flaw is that favorites can vary from day to day or based on previous wins. For example, amaranth might be a 5-star item for me, so I mark the different types of amaranth as 5-star items, but once I have a type of amaranth, I'm no longer interested in any more, so it's no longer a favorite of mine. What then? and, using this same scenario, what if we want to say "I request 'blah' OR 'blah' OR 'blah', for my first request, 'blah' for my second request, 'blah' OR 'blah' for my third request, etc...

So, an important question here is :
Do we know, with certainty, what's available when we make our requests?

Does a different person go each day so that they *know* what is available, without question? If not, what happens if multiple people request the same items? what if I put my request list out there, but because the items I wanted were already requested by others, I got nothing that first day, while some other people got one or two of their favorites plus another 2-3 packets? Is there some way to know that we aren't going to get a particular seed packet (a notice that the item is 'spoken for') so that we can list our next favorite packet instead and still be able to get the allotted number of seed packets for that day?

I'm assuming, but if this works the way I think if something isn't available you will know immediately. Therefore you can choose something else right away. Unlike other swaps you won't have to wait for someone to say yes or no. The computer counts the packs down.

The wishlist is nothing more than a convenience to the user and does not trigger an automatic dibs on the trading day. You will be able to view your wishlist and call dibs from it, but that would be a manual action on your part.

DogsNDaylilies said:what happens if multiple people request the same items?

If there are 5 offers for a plant, the first five to call dibs on it get it. This would happen starting after midnight UTC on the opening day of trading. If you really, really want something, you should make sure to be present as the clock turns and call dibs on it right away.

If multiple people call dibs at the same time, it's first come, first served. If there's only one offer available and two people click at the same time to get it, the first one who clicked and confirmed (Even if by a single millisecond) gets it. The second (slower) person will get a message saying "Sorry, there are no more offers available for this plant."

dave said:. This would happen starting after midnight UTC on the opening day of trading. ."

I thought I remember reading a 6pm starting time ?

The start time depends on what time zone you are in

gardengus said:

I thought I remember reading a 6pm starting time ?

6 pm on the 16th, Central time (7 pm Eastern time).

This must be the first ever user friendly seed swapping program anywhere! All of these automated features are terrific!

Looking forward to using the star feature! It looks like we can change what we have starred at any time. This will work great once the swap starts and I can change what I have starred from one day to the next, as the availability of the seeds I want changes.

Right, midnight UTC means 6:00pm CST.

You can always see the current time at the top of the main swap page:

http://garden.org/apps/swap/

"All swap dates are based on ATP Server Time. The current time on ATP is Nov 14, 2015 2:34 PM."

As an aside, I'm planning to make it so that once you call dibs on an item, it'll be automatically removed from your wishlist.

I know this may be asking a lot in the middle of programming but could it just have a big check or blackout or ? because if you remove it from my want list my mind might think I have not requested it
...or are you making a requested list for us too?

I've been looking through the list and it has grown overnight. I wonder how many total packs have been offered?

I starred a few things, but when I have time later I am going to go through and give anything I am remotely interested in 1 star. That way when things are winding down I won't be going over the whole list over and over to see if there is anything left unclaimed that I would use. The only negative is I won't know if something new has been added after swapping begins.