I haven't seen any Canadians posting on this thread .....is this strictly an American swap ?

signet said:I haven't seen any Canadians posting on this thread .....is this strictly an American swap ?

Yes it is. Because of government regulations and the difficulty in mailing plant material across international borders it was decided to make it a U.S. swap only. After the beta swap is finished and the new swap system is available to the rest of the members, then those in other countries would probably be able the use the system to conduct their own swaps.

Jay is right, this system will work for anybody. It's up to the host of each swap to determine which countries can participate.

You could host one, @signet!

Thanks so much for taking the time to let me know about the boundaries of the swap .

Hi Heather!

I've been thinking about you and your tomato/pepper swap a lot as Dave has been creating this fantastic tool. I owe 80% or 90% of my tomato seed variety, and any early/cold tomato knowledge, to being allowed to participate in your past cross-border swaps.

During early discussions here, many people focused on the "thou shalt not, without paperwork," aspect of mailing seeds across borders, and phytosanitary certificates were spoken of.

Multiple people reporting that they've never lost a packet to customs had no visible effect.
Maybe someone said they once lost a packet in the mail, to customs.
Maybe there was an unspoken attitude of "It's the law, end of story".

The upshot was that some people said they would only mail seeds within the borders of their own country, and I'm guessing that, at least at first, some swap hosts will follow that same rule.

That seems really, really sad for ATP members in countries with few ATP members.

It's also sad for members in countries with many members, including Canada and the USA - meaning, it's our loss, too. We won't recruit any international members or goodwill through seed swaps this way!

I'm thinking especially of @JonnaSudenius, who has gifted millions if not billions of seed packets to Americans and others outside Belgium, in seed swaps. And sold more millions or billions all over the world. Jonna, what % of your mailers get confiscated, coming or going? Any? Is the field where you grow out varieties you've received from other countries infested with foreign devils or other pests? Probably not.

Hopefully we can set up "proxies", individuals who will support swaps by re-mailing seed packages for those outside the country of the host. Each host of each swap could decide whether to permit, encourage, or forbid re-mailing.

My own perspective is that going through extra paperwork doesn't make seeds safer.

And the wildly invasive "Water Spinach" (Ipomoea aquatica Thai: "phakbung", semi-aquatic & sub-tropical) sailed right through customs in a commercial packet from Thailand that I think even said "seeds" on the outside. Fortunately I don't live in Florida or Hawaii - instead of invading and clogging the waterways, I couldn't even keep them alive in a dry cool summer.

I realize there are different opinions about this issue, and I guess mine is a minority opinion.

I was told a few years ago when sending out of country, to tell the post office that they are photos of your family. As I recall, they went right thru.
Duane

I don't hide that I am sending seeds and often mark my envelope accordingly on the customs form and have received many overseas packets marked plainly seeds. I have never lost a trade from Canada, several European countries, Brazil, a few African countries, Japan, Poland, Russia, Israel, or India, although I did have a 3 week delay once from Canada while customs opened and inspected the envelope.
I have had purchased seeds confiscated from China and Pakistan, which did not surprise me.
I am not averse to the risk of losing a few seeds if my swap partner is not either. That is my choice but I respect the choice others make not to trade internationally.

Sometimes I say "seeds" and sometimes I say "gifts". Never yet lost one in either direction.

Maybe I'm silly, but I don't mind very much breaking some laws the reasons for which I don't understand. However, fibbing bothers me a lot, even on a form that no one is ever going to read.

I still struggle with something told me by an insurance salesman, decades ago. I was trying to fill out his form accurately. He stopped me and told me to just write in some simple answers that were not quite accurate.

"They want it simple", he said. "Truthful" and "accurate" did not seem to be in his vocabulary, but he knew exactly how the Home Office wanted the forms to look.

When we interact with bureaucracies and forms, who is "right"? The bureaucrat who knows what is wanted to make "the system" run smoothly (seldom the exact, literal truth), or naive outsiders who think everything is about following written rules precisely and literally?

poisondartfrog said:I don't hide that I am sending seeds and often mark my envelope accordingly on the customs form and have received many overseas packets marked plainly seeds. I have never lost a trade from ... I have had purchased seeds confiscated from China and Pakistan, which did not surprise me.

I am not averse to the risk of losing a few seeds if my swap partner is not either. That is my choice but I respect the choice others make not to trade internationally.

Well said. To each their own choice.

@RickCorey Thank you for your support. I only lost a few packets, 1 to Costa Rica and 1 to Argentina. Also lost one to the USA ( in 10 years), but replaced it succesfully. I trade and sell all over the world, including USA, Canada, Japan, Indonesia, Australia, New Zealand and - ofcourse- all European countries. I never mention my website on the envelopes, only my name. Even sent big boxes to the USA in trades without any problem. Never got a pest and never got a report that there was a pest in my seeds. I always clean my seeds very well.

Anyway, I noticed that a lot of people here on ATP are afraid to exchange seeds with foreigners. I'm done with that. People from all around the world (including the USA) are contacting me and asking me if I want to trade with them. And yes, Rick, I donated a lot of seeds (not as much as you mentioned ), but that is only appreciated by a few persons.
In short: thank you for your support, but to be honest, I don't need group trades. Group trades are only profitable for the other members because I like to please people, but since all the negative comments here, I don't want to do that anymore.

I'm sorry to hear that, but I understand. It is greatly our loss.

Some of my favorite plants come from seeds you have sent me over the years Jonna. Thank you.

Hi again, oh my ! so very sorry !!!! didn't mean to stir up a can of worms . Being new to ATP I only asked as I have participated in a number of cross border swaps over the years with nary a problem .

When I first started seed swapping I inquired at the post office as to whether a phyto was necessary and was told only if it was a commercial sale of seeds. I do have to use phytos when I ship my daylilies to the US or elsewhere though ( it really isnt a big deal to get one ) .

I always use the customs form that they put on the envelopes of the seeds and to date have never had a problem declaring that there are seeds inside the envelope . I declare that there is no value which is true as I am not selling them . Now I cant say whether the seeds are irradiated in the postal systems ( which is always a possibility ) but as far as I know the seeds all got to where they were going with little or no interference and grew for the people that got them .

Anyway hope all who are trading get great plants from the seeds .....that's what it is all about after all.

No can of worms were opened and you don't need to apologize. As I said above, it's entirely up to the host of each swap to determine what regions of the world are included. I can't imagine why that would upset anybody but maybe some people are going to assume the worst even when the truth is right in front of them.

As the host of this first swap, I chose to make it a US only swap. I don't want to mess with customs declarations and all that, especially on a beta swap. Future hosts can decide to do it if they want - the system fully supports that. If anybody wants to get mad about that, then they are free to.

Welcome, Heather. It's nice to see you here.

I'm sure there will be many swaps to include Canada and other places. Should be great!

RickCorey said:I'm sorry to hear that, but I understand. It is greatly our loss.

I also agree with Dave -- Heather, no need to apologize, it just is what it is! Very disheartening that there is an underlying trend to prevent people from sharing seeds!

I'm behind schedule but added just a few things.

I added a bunch more seeds and remembered to "green check" them including the petunias.

Thank you for offering the black beauty seeds, but I have tried growing black beauty zucchini twice and didn't like the flavor. I am trying to find a productive, traditional zucchini for making zucchini bread. It could be green or yellow.

I don't drive. I have a wonderful neighbor who brings me shopping. He even lets me put peat moss and roses in the car! Roses are difficult to haul on the bus (but I did it once). I want to surprise him with some plants this spring including zucchini so that he can make his "famous" zucchini bread.

He is very new to computers. A seed swap would be frustrating for him ( and me since I am his computer tutor) , but he helped gather seeds for this one and didn't mind me deadheading his purchased annuals.

I know I have some yellow squash seeds, Andi, let me find them. They're from last year. (Actually there's still bags of yellow squash still in the freezer from last year too ) May also have some zucchini too.

Thanks, Andi. I grabbed one of your "white center / red edge" petunias.

It sounds like you won the "neighbor lottery" and so did he.

(Sorry, I have no zucchini seeds.)