Harris': Matt was used extensively back in the 1980's even though it was very muddy. I used to have it---got rid of it after I bloomed a few crosses from it and saw that it transmitted that quality to it's offspring. It was used a lot then because it was an advancement in full form. Sorry I do not have a pic of it---I even got rid of the picture I had. HA! That tells you how MUDDY I thought it was. Look it up in the database---you will see a Lot of Muddy.
Darla Anita is one that blooms muddy a lot of the time---but it's kids show no muddy---go figure! In fact, many of it's kids are brighter and more clear than either parent---a clarifier. The first four pics are Darla----the next three are a seedling from it.

I no longer have MATT because of it blooming so low in the foilage but I do have one seedling from it that is not muddy. Can't remember what the pollen parent was though unfortunately.

MATT X UNKNOWN

The problem I have seen with the "stippled" that I have seen is muddiness. I think it is because the dots are too small, too close together, not uniform in size/shape, and the color of the dots tend to taint the background color. There is a LOT of work to be done in that area before they are "beautiful"--at least to my eye. I look forward to the day when there is a daylily flower that has a near-white background color, with 1/16" diameter, perfectly uniform, round, red dots all over it that are not crowded---Polka dotted--if you will. That will be a fine day indeed!
In the near term---one might use a clarifier and see if that helps. Pat Stamile used Great White to clarify his pink line. It also helped to make his whites---whiter. I think his Michael Miller has a similar ability--but not as consistent---as Great White. A clarifier may clean up the background to make the dots more distinct. Then again--it may eliminate the dots altogether. It's worth a try.

Hey Cindy---WOW! that really is great color. I can see why you kept it all these years. I used it with whites and yellows---muddy begat muddy.

Thanks!!!

I have always considered that "muddy" meant brown tones added to a colour. One can make brown by mixing yellow, red and blue.

Daylilies can have yellow pigments in their flowers - the carotenoid pigments. When these are in high concentrations they can be orange (there are also more orangey carotenoid pigments).

Daylilies can have reddish pigments in their flowers - the anthocyanin cyanidin pigments (reddish-purple).

Daylilies can have bluish pigments in their flowers - the anthocyanin delphinidin pigments (bluish-purple).

The carotenoid pigments are in the middle layers of the petals; the anthocyanin pigments are in the outer or very upper layer of the petals.

The carotenoid pigments are usually in little packets in the cells; the anthocyanin pigments are usually dissolved in watery liquid in the centre of cells.

There are also light yellow, cream pigments related to the anthocyanin pigments and located in the same petal layer and position in the cells. Call these precursors.

I think that if a petal has large amounts of carotenoid pigments and has anthocyanin pigments one gets some brown or mud. Since the anthocyanin pigments are in the uppermost layer of the petal sunlight or high temperatures may decrease their amounts during the day leaving the more yellow carotenoid pigments visible. Possibly why 'Matt' tends to be more muddy on some days and then become more yellow and less muddy during the day. Matt seems to show an overlay of muddy colour.

I think that no matter how much of the yellow precursors a petal has with anthocyanin pigments one does not get any brown or mud.

To get brown/muddy colours one has to have some anthocyanin pigment and these are always affected by temperature, sunlight, etc. (environmental factors). I think that the bluish-purple delphinidin pigments are more affected by environmental factors than the reddish-purple cyanidin pigments.

@admmad

Thank you Maurice. I know in some other plants the anthocyanin pigments can 'burn' off in sunlight. A bloom that is pale pink or lavender when it first opens can be near white a bit later if it's in direct sun. When that tint is overlaying another color, then the presentation of the underlying color is different. A 'muddy' bloom might not always appear 'muddy' even on the same day.

"In the near term---one might use a clarifier and see if that helps. Pat Stamile used Great White to clarify his pink line. It also helped to make his whites---whiter. I think his Michael Miller has a similar ability--but not as consistent---as Great White. A clarifier may clean up the background to make the dots more distinct. Then again--it may eliminate the dots altogether. It's worth a try."

The problem with using those two cultivars, is that they are both rust susceptible. We do not need more rusty daylilies. Certainly there must be something suitable color-wise, which will clarify, and has some rust resistance... or at least doesn't score a 3.8 ('Great White') on the rust scale!

Several years ago while researching something unrelated to "muddy" a friend suggested I read an article by Jim Brennan in the Summer 94 issue of the Daylily Journal ( AHS members can access this issue through the portal) which included information about the color brown seen in Milk Chocolate. Jim thought the brown color was from lavender over orange but when looking at the cells under a microscope found instead that the upper epidermal cells had a dark "glob" of pigment possibly from an insoluble concentration of lavender pigments.
The article always comes into mind whenever I'm thinking about mud in daylilies and how "muddy" and the brown color seen in daylilies like Milk Chocolate could be something completely different. I don't know if Jim or anyone ever did more research into the color brown...

This is a very interesting thread to me, because I have been wrestling with understanding the qualities of mud, mauve, and what I call layered colors. I have learned (with guidance from more experienced hybridizers) to identify mauve and see the muddy drawbacks. I can certainly see mud in the outer petals of all the patterns with a pink petal base color. Pat Stamile has said this goes hand-in-hand with the pattern genes and is the big challenge to overcome with patterns. Although it seems to me that recently I've seen some patterns on white base petals that look pretty clean. Just in the past year or so. But I like a mixture of colors sometimes. I don't want pure pink, pure red, pure lavender all the time. Sometimes a mixture is interesting - I guess what we're saying is, it's all a matter of taste. As Judy pointed out, Curt Hanson has done some of this. I think INCA APOTHECARY is probably the least pretty, but I like RAINBOW MESA which seems in the same ball park to me. What I am liking in my own seedlings is what I can only describe as a base color with a very thin overlay of a different color. I love these looks, but realize some might just see mud. Here are some below. The first is a pink base with a violet overlay. Pictures don't do it justice, but it's a real head turner in the garden. Pulls your eye right to it, whereas if it were pure pink, I don't think it would. The second one I realize many would just see mud, but in real life, it looks like you sprayed a very thin, gauzy layer of grey over it. Maybe this is the smoky look Judy was talking about. Less pronounced here than in TRAHLYTA, and maybe it doesn't come through in the picture, but I thought I'd try it. I would probably never introduce this, but I will definitely keep it for myself. This is SOUTH SEAS x CLEAR FORK. The third is a cross of SOUTH SEAS x DON DIEGO - and the petals here, too, have a mixture to my eye of pink and a tinge of orange. Others might just see a muddy pink, but I like this look. Maurice's comments make it easier to understand - maybe pink and lavender layers aren't muddy, but layers with yellow or orange are more likely to be. On the other hand, the fourth pic is a pink-yellow cross THE FULL MONTY x SEARS TOWER. This could definitely be called muddy, put I like the color combo. Very interesting to hear people's views on all these different flowers.

Maurice - Interesting info about what creates a muddy color. To just look at a daylily, it looks so simplistic. But it's amazing to me how complex this genus really is!

Greg - Thank you for the suggestion of a couple of "white" cultivars (which would work for those in the north), but ......

I do agree with Polymerous ..... I need the name of some "rust resistant" whites. Living in the south, rust is an issue .... that I am trying to breed some resistant into my seedlings.

Anyone have any rust resistant "whites" to recommend? I really need one or two whites. Preferably one that is a tet and one that is a dip. Anyone have any cultivars to suggest?????

Becky, good luck with that. I've been searching high and low, and I think that we may need to go back to older cultivars to get resistance. (But then, we lose the modern form and ruffles and rebloom and taller scape height and all those goodies. )

Among more recent tet daylilies, Petit's 'December Wedding' may or may not have some rust resistance http://www.petitdaylilies.com/... ; it is too new here to tell, and it looks like a very pale pink to me, as opposed to being white-ish.

For older tet daylilies, I am looking at some old Stamile cultivars. 'Crystalline Pink' is supposedly resistant (thus far no rust here) with an ATP score of 1.0. I have no seedling from it yet, however, so I can't comment on clarity or anything like that. The color is a pink over what seems to be a near-white base, but the pink does tend to blotch, and the flowers don't open as flat as I would like, plus the form is older.



Older near-white tets such as Stamile's 'Alpine Snow' might be useful; it comes out of tet 'Monica Marie' which is resistant.



I haven't bought many dips these past several years (excepting my Huben binge), so I can only point to older cultivars, or more recent ones derived from older cultivars.

'Tuscawilla Tranquillity' has been resistant here (ATP rust resistance score of 1.3). It is not 'white', but it is whiter than the tet near-whites that I have.



'Newberry White Dove' has thus far been resistant. It is higher here than the registered 18"; I have measured the scape height ranging from 21" - 25". It will sometimes rebloom here in the early fall. I has a long pistil, though, and I have not yet been able to set pods on it.



Mike Huben has done a lot of work with white dips, especially focusing on certain forms and on continuous rebloom. Some of them are clear and/or color clarifiers, but I don't know about their rust resistance. (I think that 'Tuscawilla Tranquillity' is there however many generations back, so that at least is hopeful.) You might check them out, though; I purchased mine from Harmon Hill Farm. http://www.harmonhillfarm.com/...

Good luck!

(I have a cream to near-white tet seedling which I have hopes for on the rust resistance front; it has been exposed to a lot of rust this past year, but has had no obvious outbreak (not that I've been examining it closely, you understand). The flowers open well and are attractive (at least, to me ), but thus far it is lacking in budcount and branching, and has not yet rebloomed. I think I need to move it and treat it better.)

Thanks, Polymerous! That gives me a start. The good thing about older cultivars is that they might be much more affordable for me, personally. There is something to be said for some of the older cultivars. The gene pool may be less extensive, but sometimes that might be a good thing if I am breeding for something specific. I had read somewhere that Petit was doing breeding for rust resistance in his more current hybrids (since the rust outbreak in the early 2000s).

Anyone else have any "whites" they can recommend that are also rust resistant?

Hi Becky. I have Big Snowbird daylily that is near white diploid. If you would like it for your hybridizing project, I will gladly send you a double fan for postage this spring. According to the ATP, it shows some resistance to rust. Looks like it produces lovely children.

Karen - That is VERY nice and generous of you! I took a look at the cultivar in the plant database:
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Big Snowbird')

This is the first time ever that I have not seen a cultivar classified as dormant, semi-evergreen, or evergreen!!! So ... being an unknown .... I would love to try a double fan of yours to see how it does and what kind of children it produces! THANK YOU!!!

I am going to send you a tree-mail so that I don't forget.

Looking at the children's stats, I have a feeling that Big Snowbird is a dormant. For postage though, it's worth trying to use for hybridizing however long it lasts in my garden. Some dormants do not survive for more than 3 years in warm Florida. All I need is a season or two of blooms to use as a parent crossed with some other rust resistant sev or ev cultivars or seedlings. Maybe I can clean up the color on my Stippled Statement x Alexa Kathryn seedling by crossing it with Big Snowbird? Worth a try!

And boy! do I love the look of "Remembering Ruth" which is a cross of Big Snowbird x Beautiful Edgings. NICE!!!

I did see 'Big Snowbird' listed as a dormant on one site.

Sorry, I don't know whether it is a dormant or SE. It is listed as rust resistant on ATP plant page.

Yes, I saw the rust resistant rating. Definitely worth trying because of that and the bloom color!

'Tacia Marie' is a rust resistant white. However, it is hard to find. If you find it---let me know---would love to have it. Great White does get some rust---but only late in the season. It has not given me problems that way here.