Soil and Compost forum: Manganese sulfate

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Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Shadegardener
Jan 11, 2016 12:13 PM CST
I'm trying to find a source for manganese sulfate. I did see some on Amazon from Sunniland but I can't find an analysis or ingredient list for it. Can anyone suggest another source? TIA
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Jan 11, 2016 1:45 PM CST
Plant Products have it:

http://www.plantproducts.com/us/search.php?search=Manganese

I think years ago I was also able to get some from a pharmacy (drug store) but had to sign something to be able to get it. Are you having soil pH problems, says me being nosy? :lol:

Edited to add that looking at the above site they are large quantities, probably much larger than you need unless you're treating a large area.
[Last edited by sooby - Jan 11, 2016 1:47 PM (+)]
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Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Shadegardener
Jan 11, 2016 2:02 PM CST
Sue - Thanks so much for looking that up but I only need about 4 lbs. I'm doing "The Intelligent Gardener" thing and am working on the blend of minerals I need to bring my garden up to a good level. I'm going for the sulfate because my soil is running about 7.1 pH. I may have to reformulate my blend in order to get manganese from a different source. I'm trying to not resort to dolomite as it may "tighten up" my clay soil underneath the thin layer of silty loam on top.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Jan 11, 2016 2:15 PM CST
Do you know for sure your soil is low in Mn though? Ordinarily it's there but blocked by the pH and a pH of 7.1 is enough to do that to manganese. I would not add manganese to the soil without a test, like some other micronutrients it is essential but only in small quantities and is toxic to plants in higher amounts. In most cases lowering the pH will make sufficient manganese (and other micros) more available to the plants.

No, you don't want to use dolomite because it could raise the pH even higher and make micronutrients even less available. But since you mentioned dolomite, which is a source of magnesium, just double checking that you do mean manganese sulfate and not magnesium sulfate (Epsom salts)?
Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Shadegardener
Jan 11, 2016 3:34 PM CST
Yep - manganese, not magnesium. Actually, I did have a soil test done and I have excess magnesium and calcium. Also have low potassium (only half of target). I have a TCEC of 13.92 and organic matter of 11.06%. I can try omitting the manganese if I can't find it and hope the other sulfates will bring down the pH enough to release manganese.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Jan 11, 2016 3:48 PM CST
There is another source on Amazon, in 3lb bags, for some reason my iPad won't let me post a link. Have you considered just lowering the pH with sulfur to make all the micros (except molybdenum) more available?
Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Shadegardener
Jan 11, 2016 6:37 PM CST
According to the book, I'm low on potassium, boron, iron, copper, zinc and sulfur. Some of the target values are based on TCEC. I'm not quite sure that lowering pH will release all of those minerals. From my understanding, the TCEC won't necessarily release the nutrients based on pH.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Jan 12, 2016 5:56 AM CST
I haven't read the book, but this page is from their website and they still recommend sulfur if the TCEC is more than 10. Typically a clay soil has a high buffering capacity so it takes more amendments to change the pH up or down but a conventional lab soil pH test should tell you how much you need for your particular soil and if it is doable. Unless you're growing real acid soil lovers like rhodos or blueberries you shouldn't need to lower it too much from 7.1 if at all. If iron or manganese are low/unavailable enough for the plants that you grow, you would be seeing interveinal chlorosis on the youngest leaves of those susceptible.

https://growabundant.com/sulfur/

A plant tissue analysis including micros would tell you what the plants are able to get from the soil as opposed to what's actually in it.
Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Shadegardener
Jan 12, 2016 9:01 AM CST
Thanks for the info. I didn't have any plant tissue analysis done and the only desired values given by the soil lab were for calcium, magnesium and potassium. No - I didn't pay extra for additional recommendations. I do plan on going back through the book now that my first attempt at the worksheet has been done. Just the worksheet exercise helps understanding the text.
Name: Dirt
(Zone 5b)
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Garden Photography Bee Lover Region: Utah Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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dirtdorphins
Jan 12, 2016 10:01 PM CST
Shadegardener said:According to the book, I'm low on potassium, boron, iron, copper, zinc and sulfur. Some of the target values are based on TCEC. I'm not quite sure that lowering pH will release all of those minerals. From my understanding, the TCEC won't necessarily release the nutrients based on pH.


?the TCEC won't necessarily release the nutrients based on pH...?
Confused
right--mathematical equations don't "hold on to" or "release" anything

Given that TCEC, Total Cation Exchange Capacity, is a mathematical calculation derived from the pH -as measured in your soil- and the amount of four (only four) cations -as measured in your soil- if you change the pH and/or change the amounts of the four measured cations (calcium, magnesium, potassium, and sodium) then the input to the equation changes and then the calculated TCEC can change some (or not much, depending). But, really, the only thing the TCEC actually tells you is how much calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium you have in your soil, at your pH.

Forgive me for just jumping in here and having no clue what you are talking about--

but, the pH is one of the most important factors in the "bioavailiabity" of the minerals to the plants because the pH dictates the form and the solubility of the minerals in your soil.

I would give anything to get my pH down to 7.1! Well, and keep it there but, that's not possible for me.
I am out here in calcareous and sodic land with major excesses and enough alkalinity of both soil and water -and lack of water- along with the tremendous buffering capacity of this muck-- it is pretty frustrating and dare I say hopeless? Yes, hopeless in many respects--no blueberries for me Sad


edit: spelling
[Last edited by dirtdorphins - Jan 13, 2016 10:37 PM (+)]
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Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Shadegardener
Jan 13, 2016 9:41 AM CST
I did find a handy-dandy spreadsheet online that did the amendment calculations for me as check against what I had done manually. It yielded the same results on K, Mn, Cu, Zn and B, using sulfate forms (except for B). It did change the N and P forms and the resulting formula seems a little more manageable.
Dirt - do you garden in raised beds?
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Vegetable Grower
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RickCorey
Jan 13, 2016 6:46 PM CST
I saw a suggestion once for determining what a poor lawn needs, without soil tests.

Use a fertilizer spreader to spread whatever you are wondering about (say, lime). Spread it ONLY on one quarter of the lawn.
Or, better, use the spreader to write the word "LIME" on your lawn in huge letters.

Next summer, if that quadrant turns greener than the rest of the lawn, or you see the word "LIME" in darker green grass, the lawn needed more lime and you can spread it everywhere else on your lawn.

In the context of raised beds, it would be harder to get a good, clean comparison. Maybe just foliar-spray a few plants each with the micro nutrients you're wondering about. The plants that do conspicuously better point to what was lacking in the soil.

If you wonder about two things, you can spread one thing on half the lawn (the East half). Then spread the other thing on the North half. now you have four quadrants:
nothing added
both added
only A added
only B added


But if you need THREE things supplemented, this is a hard way to figure out what three. I guess you could lay down the 4 quadrants with A and B, then lay down multiple criss-crossing narrow stripes of C and look at all the intersections. Naah, not practical. You would have to repair the main lacks first, and then go back next year and look for minor lacks.

Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Jan 13, 2016 7:16 PM CST
On the other hand, a soil test for organic matter, Available Phosphorus, Exchangeable Potassium, Magnesium, Calcium, Soil pH, Buffer pH, Cation Exchange Capacity, Percent Base Saturation of Cation Elements, Sulfur, Zinc, Manganese, Iron, Copper, and Boron including recommendations costs just under $20 at the one lab I checked. One might easily spend more than that guessing and trying different things. Smiling
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Vegetable Grower
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member
Image
RickCorey
Jan 13, 2016 7:54 PM CST
Good point. The one time I went looking for soil test prices, I must not have looked int he right places.
Name: Dirt
(Zone 5b)
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Garden Photography Bee Lover Region: Utah Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Photo Contest Winner: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2016
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dirtdorphins
Jan 13, 2016 10:36 PM CST
Wow Sue--what lab is that I'm all ears! ?

Cindy, I have a couple of smallish planter boxes for lettuces and such, but mostly amended beds that are sort of raised, but not really, just in high spots (on top of hills) and on the slopes.

Rick, I'd like to put some words in my lawn Sticking tongue out
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Jan 14, 2016 6:10 AM CST
dirtdorphins said:Wow Sue--what lab is that I'm all ears! ?


A & L in Fort Wayne, Indiana (I looked in Indiana to keep it more relevant to the thread. Here's their price list:

http://algreatlakes.com/pages/soil-analysis

Looking for others, U of Idaho is more expensive, price list:

http://www.uidaho.edu/~/media/UIdaho-Responsive/Files/cals/P...

Another I just looked at was still more but then I found one that did all the elements for $10 so it seems to vary widely. There's a list of labs here, FWIW, but not all have price lists online:

http://www.naptprogram.org/about/participants/all/

Edited to add this one:
http://www.loganlabs.com/doc/LoganBrochure.pdf

which is on the above list (North American Proficiency Testing Program) and the one used by the website related to the book under discussion. They charge $25 for the standard test (pH, organic matter, base saturation, total exchange capacity, sulfur, phosphorous, calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, boron, iron, manganese, copper, zinc and aluminum.

[Last edited by sooby - Jan 14, 2016 7:24 AM (+)]
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Name: Dirt
(Zone 5b)
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Garden Photography Bee Lover Region: Utah Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Photo Contest Winner: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2016
Image
dirtdorphins
Jan 14, 2016 9:03 AM CST
Thank You Sue!
Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Shadegardener
Jan 14, 2016 9:45 AM CST
I used Logan Labs for $25. The analysis results were emailed to me in 3 days.
Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Shadegardener
Jan 14, 2016 10:17 AM CST
Forgot to mention that I did get "desired values" for Ca, Mg, and K.
For me, "The Intelligent Gardener" is an informative look at the possibilities of soil remineralization and coaxed me into actually doing a soil test - something I had never done in 25+ years of gardening. I like that it answers the "whys" of excesses or deficits of important nutrients - some I was never aware of. An overdue look at my soil, I guess.
Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Shadegardener
Jan 14, 2016 10:51 AM CST
Ach! My brain is focused on other things this morning. The Logan Labs report also gives a desired range for base saturation % of Ca, Mg, K, and Na. Trace elements of B, Fe, Mn, Cu, Zn and Al are reported as ppm with no recommendations on the report.

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