Daylilies forum: crossing edges-- at all predictable?

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Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
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Dennis616
Jan 25, 2016 10:25 AM CST
No doubt that when hybridizing there are few certainties-- and that one should expect the unexpected Hilarious!

But still I’m curious… are you aware of any results that might be expected to happen a bit more frequently when you cross different edges? Any generalities regarding relative dominance between the different kinds of edges—teeth, piecrust, extreme ruffles, etc.? Or is just 100% roll of the dice...

I’ve read that crossing teeth with teeth almost always produces children with teeth, and that teeth are generally dominant.

If you cross teeth (like Bass Gibson) with heavy ruffles (like Alpine Ruffles) is there any result you’d expect? More kids with teeth than not? Teethy ruffles? Thoughts anyone?

Anyone have insights into what might be expected more frequently if crossing two different edges of any kind?

+ = ???

Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
Image
Dennis616
Jan 26, 2016 5:19 AM CST
Where are all the daylily dentists who are working with teeth? Shrug! Hilarious!

Honestly it is the season a lot of daylily people go dormant Hilarious!

I supposed I just need to face the fact that there really are no short-cuts with hybridizing-- I'll just have to try things and see what happens for myself (and be surprised)...
Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

Charter ATP Member Region: Gulf Coast I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seller of Garden Stuff Dog Lover Region: United States of America
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spunky1
Jan 26, 2016 7:07 AM CST
In 2012- I used a heavy edged pod parent and a toothie pollen parent and bloomed 16 seedlings from the cross, all had teeth. I made the same cross in 2014 with the same results.
Thumb of 2016-01-26/spunky1/c9232e
From 2014
Thumb of 2016-01-26/spunky1/f7f493
HB20-15 This one from 2012 will be registered
Thumb of 2016-01-26/spunky1/f80a6e
HB20-15 30% poly
Thumb of 2016-01-26/spunky1/db8dc1

Name: Stan
Florida Panhandle (Defuniak Sp (Zone 8b)
Region: Gulf Coast Enjoys or suffers hot summers Daylilies Lilies Keeps Horses Dog Lover
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GaNinFl
Jan 26, 2016 7:08 AM CST
Great Question Dennis...

Wish I could provide some insight here but I'm just a rookie when it comes to growing daylily's and am curious to know this answer too. I read somewhere about color combinations to achieve a certain color, such as with the blues. I cant imagine that there aren't traits from the teethy critters offspring and fringe or ruffle edges passing similar traits... Hope we hear back from some folks, soon!

Thank You! for asking this one...

I tip my hat to you.
Stan
(Georgia Native in Florida)
http://garden.org/blogs/view/GaNinFl/
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Jan 26, 2016 7:32 AM CST
spunky1 said:In 2012- I used a heavy edged pod parent and a toothie pollen parent and bloomed 16 seedlings from the cross, all had teeth. I made the same cross in 2014 with the same results.


Blooming 32 seedlings from a cross(es) with only one toothy parent and all those seedlings having teeth is 100% phenotype from just one parent. A good indication the toothy edge is a dominant trait - at least in this case. Were all these seedlings from the same cross? The other question would be if the heavy edged pod parent had toothy ancestors.

Donald
Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
Image
Dennis616
Jan 26, 2016 7:38 AM CST
Fred, that sure seems to confirm the dominance of teeth! Thanks for sharing. Gorgeous blooms.
SW Michigan (Zone 5b)
AlleyCat
Jan 26, 2016 7:50 AM CST
Beautiful seedlings Fred! Glad you shared them. Love that poly...not often have I seen more than 4 petals. Wish I could help you out on any advice Dennis but I don't have experience in the toothy department!
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
Image
admmad
Jan 26, 2016 9:19 AM CST
Dennis616 said:Fred, that sure seems to confirm the dominance of teeth!


There are other possibilities.

Teeth and ruffled edges might be different aspects of the same characteristic. For example, do plants like 'Decatur Piecrust' and 'Yuma' have ruffled edges, the beginning of teeth or both? Decatur Piecrust × [sdlg × (Lahaina × Yuma)] -> Forestlake Ragamuffin

Teeth, like most characteristics that can have different measurements (length of the teeth) might be additive. Then a cross of a plant with large teeth to a plant with no teeth (and none in its ancestry) would produce seedlings with an average tooth length of 1/2 that of the toothed parent. A cross of a plant with small teeth to a plant with no teeth (and none in its ancestry) would produce seedlings without teeth. With some quantitative characters, (teeth would be a quantitative character because two daylilies can both have teeth but they would have different length teeth) there is a threshold below which the characteristic is not visible in the plant. A quantitative character has many different genes that affect it (eg 30, 60, etc). When a characteristic has a threshold then although many genes affect it (eg the length of the teeth) it does not become visible to the unaided eye until a certain number that increase the character have been accumulated.

Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Jan 26, 2016 9:26 AM (+)]
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Name: Barb
Quincy, FL (Zone 8b)
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Dragonkeep
Jan 26, 2016 6:36 PM CST
Thanks for the question and thanks Fred for your speculations and photos of your seedlings. They are beautiful. Love the 2nd photo for the color, fullness and teeth. Just a pretty flower.

Barb
“Because we all share this planet earth, we have to learn to live in harmony and peace with each other and with nature. This is not just a dream, but a necessity.”
― Dalai Lama
Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

Charter ATP Member Region: Gulf Coast I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seller of Garden Stuff Dog Lover Region: United States of America
Ponds Hummingbirder Daylilies Container Gardener Butterflies Birds
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spunky1
Jan 27, 2016 4:49 AM CST
The only reason I made that cross in 2012, I had no other toothy things to speak of and had heard somewhere to put teeth on heavy edged daylilies. I sure did not expect all of them to have teeth and have not tried this with any other cross.
Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
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Dennis616
Jan 27, 2016 6:28 AM CST
Thanks for your comments, Maurice. Thumbs up

I’m a very small-scale casual hybridizer and plan to cross an extra-large-sized bloom that has heavy ruffles with a smaller bloom that has lots of big teeth. Would like to get a large to extra-large-sized bloom with teeth and my suspicion is that I will have a fairly high likelihood of success.

One might be able to loosely use the term “dominant” to describe teeth because it seems to be true more often than not that teeth get passed on and are visibly displayed by children. However there are of course many variables that could come into play on any specific cross. My ruffled bloom could cause some gene interaction that eliminates the teeth. I’ll have to wait and see!
I'm going to cross teeth with a pie-crust edge and that will be interesting as well...

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