Plant Database forum: Are dudleyas releated to Sempervivums?

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Name: Marilyn
Greenwood Village, CO (Zone 5b)
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CDsSister
Feb 22, 2016 5:43 PM CST
I noticed some of the recent postings of pictures of dudleyas and it got me to wonder how and if these species are related?
The Dudleyas Database

The Sempervivum Database

Can anyone help educate me, Please?

I do see the dudleyas were formerly classified as Echeveria. Which I think are tender succulent? @Marilyn

Thanks, Thank You! Thank You!
Name: Marilyn
Northern KY (Zone 6a)
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Marilyn
Feb 22, 2016 7:12 PM CST
@CDsSister

I think @valleylynn is the one you want to ask and get your answers from. I don't know Dudleyas and I don't grow Sempervivums, as Lynn does however. Hope she can help you.

(edited to state): From looking at the Dudleyas pics, they do look related to Sempervivums and I bet they are.
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[Last edited by Marilyn - Feb 22, 2016 7:14 PM (+)]
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Name: Thijs van Soest
Mesa, AZ (Zone 9b)
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mcvansoest
Feb 22, 2016 7:18 PM CST
They are both part of the Crassulaceae family, but they are not closely related in the sense that Dudleyas occur naturally on the western side of north and central America (maybe into South America?), whereas Sempervivums occur naturally in Europe.

There is a wealth of information to be found on this website: http://succulent-plant.com/families/crassulaceae.html

Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
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valleylynn
Feb 22, 2016 7:27 PM CST
Thank you for the call out Marilyn.

Both Dudleya and sempervivum come from the family of Crassulaceae, so the two Genus are related. Dudleya is only hardy to zone 8, some say zone 9. But it is growing outdoors in my zone 8 garden. One in a container on the covered deck, the other out in the raised beds in sandy loam (very fast draining).

Hope this was helpful for both Marilyns. Green Grin!
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Feb 22, 2016 7:28 PM CST
Thank you for further information Thijs , we cross posted.
Name: Marilyn
Northern KY (Zone 6a)
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Marilyn
Feb 22, 2016 7:37 PM CST
Thanks to both @mcvansoest and @valleylynn for your information to help @CDsSister with her questions. I tip my hat to you.

Happy I can help the "the other Marilyn" with plant knowledge. Thumbs up
Welcome to the Agastache and Salvias Forum!

Hummingbirds are beautiful flying jewels in the garden!


Name: Marilyn
Northern KY (Zone 6a)
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Marilyn
Feb 22, 2016 7:42 PM CST
I've thought of growing Semps, but am worried that the wild rabbits will chew the plants down to the ground. Will they if I grow them?

Edited to ask: Can I grow then in containers?
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[Last edited by Marilyn - Feb 22, 2016 7:44 PM (+)]
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Name: Marilyn
Northern KY (Zone 6a)
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Marilyn
Feb 22, 2016 7:47 PM CST
valleylynn said:Thank you for the call out Marilyn.

Both Dudleya and sempervivum come from the family of Crassulaceae, so the two Genus are related. Dudleya is only hardy to zone 8, some say zone 9. But it is growing outdoors in my zone 8 garden. One in a container on the covered deck, the other out in the raised beds in sandy loam (very fast draining).

Hope this was helpful for both Marilyns. Green Grin!


Oops! I just remembered you said you have one growing in a container. *Blush* Will that also apply to Hens and Chicks if and when I grow them? Does the container have to be in a sheltered spot or can it be out in the open?

Welcome to the Agastache and Salvias Forum!

Hummingbirds are beautiful flying jewels in the garden!


Name: Marilyn
Greenwood Village, CO (Zone 5b)
Garden today. Clean next week.
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CDsSister
Feb 22, 2016 7:47 PM CST
Oops I know Lynn is the expert on Semps but something I was reading which was posted by Marilyn led me to believe she might know more about dudleyas. Thanks to all who have contributed to my knowledge.

Marilyn, It was not the Rabbits who ate my semps but rather dry wind and exteme cold and low sunlight , in up and down cycles which did them in.
Name: Marilyn
Northern KY (Zone 6a)
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Marilyn
Feb 22, 2016 7:56 PM CST
My dear, beloved and wonderful Mom passed away on 2/14/16 and I've been thinking what plants she grew, so I could grow them in memory of her. Lovey dubby

I remembered she grew Hens and Chicks and I was worried about the rabbits. If they won't chew them down, then I'm all in! Have to check how much to allow for width (doesn't state it in the database) or maybe I'll try growing them in a container.

Hen and Chick (Sempervivum annae)

@valleylynn, could you educate me?
Welcome to the Agastache and Salvias Forum!

Hummingbirds are beautiful flying jewels in the garden!


[Last edited by Marilyn - Feb 24, 2016 1:18 AM (+)]
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Name: Thijs van Soest
Mesa, AZ (Zone 9b)
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mcvansoest
Feb 22, 2016 8:27 PM CST
Thank you for the 'thank you's! They are appreciated. I am incapable of growing them here - the summers are too rough for the level of care I am willing/able to give them (I know there are plenty of people who are pretty successful at growing these in the Phoenix area, so it is me who is the main problem not the plants necessarily) - any I have ever tried have eventually ended up as black goo, on a random summer day....

However, I do think rabbits might be a danger to them, so pots and some protection might be a wise approach.

Name: Marilyn
Northern KY (Zone 6a)
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Marilyn
Feb 22, 2016 8:45 PM CST
@mcvansoest

Thanks and welcome to ATP! Welcome!
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Hummingbirds are beautiful flying jewels in the garden!


Name: Dirt
(Zone 5b)
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dirtdorphins
Feb 22, 2016 9:26 PM CST
In my experience with rabbits (used to have waaaaaay too many hungry rabbits when I lived in the midwest!), they did eat the semps some in the winter and early spring until other more delectable things started to grow. The semps always recovered fine--never lost any completely to the varmints.
Of course you can grow them in a container-- and if/when the colony outgrows the surface space of the container, you can make more containers of them Thumbs up

Does anyone know if Dudleya cymosa is more cold tolerant?
I'm intending to try one this year, because I saw some sources say that it is...
Name: Marilyn
Northern KY (Zone 6a)
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Marilyn
Feb 22, 2016 10:03 PM CST
Thanks @dirtdorphins for your info!
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Name: tarev
San Joaquin County, CA (Zone 9b)
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tarev
Feb 22, 2016 10:30 PM CST
I have grown some noid dudleyas before, and I find in my area, they cannot really stand our rain and cold, and I think that is how I lost them. But if kept just cool and dry, as with most succulents they will fare better, just not in the low 20's range. And even the extreme heat they did not like. Best conditions is in the 50F to 80F range, with some shade in my area during our hottest summers. Humidity is not an issue here during summer, way too dry here.

With the semps, they suffer in our heat here, but there are some varieties a bit more tolerant. They can certainly endure our winter rain and cold here, as long as I really prop them in a rocky medium so it drains very fast.
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
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Baja_Costero
Feb 22, 2016 10:49 PM CST
I live in the land of the Dudleyas (mostly California/Baja California coastal species, none extending much further north or south of that range) and they are wonderful plants. As tarev notes, they do not like cold or heat (though there are a few plants from the desert which do better under those conditions). Most Dudleyas come from moist, cool, mild coastal locations with regular fog, especially at night. While they may grow in day-long sun in habitat, most do much better with some protection where it gets toasty. All prefer excellent drainage (at least 50% rock).

You can tell Sempervivums from Dudleyas (among other ways) in that they tend to have little hairs along the fringes of the leaves, while Dudleyas do not; and they die after flowering, while Dudleyas live on. You can tell Dudleyas from Echeverias (a more closely related group) in that they do cannot be propagated from leaves, while Echeverias usually can; and while all Echeverias make tubular flowers, there are some Dudleyas which make open (flat) flowers.

In my experience Dudleyas are vulnerable to hares but relatively unpalatable to ground squirrels. They are far better than Echeverias at handling our predictable months-long drought every summer (and do quite well with no supplemental water). If you live in a place where summer heat is prohibitive, you can bring the plants indoors to give them a break during this period (which is when they normally go dormant). However you need to provide them a very bright location (hours of daily sun, the most light possible) if you overwinter them indoors. Winter is generally their season of growth and they require strong light to do well.
[Last edited by Baja_Costero - Feb 23, 2016 10:02 AM (+)]
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Name: Marilyn
Greenwood Village, CO (Zone 5b)
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CDsSister
Feb 23, 2016 1:11 PM CST
Thanks so much. I have admired the pictures of the Dudleyas you have posted Baja and I was just curious since they look so similar to me.

For sure, they would not do for our Colorado climate. I will just continue to admire all the similar plants from afar or try a few again as annuals.

Sighing!

Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
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Baja_Costero
Feb 23, 2016 1:57 PM CST
Hey, that's what the internet is for! Stay tuned to this channel, many more pictures in the bin... a few here to look at if you're curious. I appreciate the insight you all provided during this thread. These are native plants so they are special to me.

This is what Dudleya habitat looks like. Home sweet home is a crack in the rock. At least 15 plants and 3 species in this photo:

Thumb of 2016-02-23/Baja_Costero/3e1def

And here is my homemade equivalent:

Thumb of 2016-02-23/Baja_Costero/902e48

A pot I put underneath a flowering Dudleya, knowing from experience (seedling volunteers around the patio) that she would cast her seed there.

This is the mother plant, who has grown a bit of a stem in the first 12 years of her life. Needs a new pot soon.

Thumb of 2016-02-23/Baja_Costero/55b798 Thumb of 2016-02-23/Baja_Costero/9cf6ea

In Spanish these plants are called siemprevivas (live-forevers), which you will note is essentially identical to the Latin name of the genus Sempervivum. Shrug! Yeah, so anyway one of them lives forever and the other one dies when it flowers (mother plant anyway).

To continue the saga of love and promiscuity, here is the father of those seedlings. You will note that he makes sideways growing inflorescences (different). Population variation in action (the mother is from south of here, the father from just up the hill. You can see other things (longer, glossier leaves in the father, passed on to the offspring) but the flowers are the most obvious difference. In case you wondered, I know the sideways flowering plant is not the mother because I terminated those flowers once they had served their role as pollen donor and turned into a bug farm. Smiling Also pictured: three older seedling volunteers from a previous year, now planted in the ground.

Thumb of 2016-02-23/Baja_Costero/f32a66 Thumb of 2016-02-23/Baja_Costero/e24ff0

Finally a hybrid volunteer with a different father (there are powder-dusted Dudleyas growing in the public garden across the street). You can see a little powder made it through into this one.

Thumb of 2016-02-23/Baja_Costero/5ada8e
[Last edited by Baja_Costero - Feb 23, 2016 2:29 PM (+)]
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Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Feb 23, 2016 6:01 PM CST
Beautiful photo Baja. What fun it is to see different species of dudleya and now even crosses.

Marilyn, just think of where they grow in their natural habitat. The ones here in Oregon are growing on the very big rocks on the beaches. All of them I have seen have been on the east and northeast sides of the rocks. They get daily moisture for the morning mists and rains along the coast. Here is a picture using a telephoto lens. This was way up about 15 or 20 feet from the beach.
Thumb of 2016-02-23/valleylynn/9c3056

And this is Cliff standing down the beach from one of the rock formations. You can see the colony of dudleya on the rock behind him. If he walked up to that side of the rock it is about 15 to 20 feet above his head. There are also Sedum spathulifolium growing through the dudleya. It was beautiful to see. This is the D. farinosa species with lovely powdery coating.
Thumb of 2016-02-23/valleylynn/379cf2

Name: Dirt
(Zone 5b)
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dirtdorphins
Feb 23, 2016 7:08 PM CST
Too bad I have no cliffs by the ocean! I have rocks though--
wonderful pics and I really would love for the one to grow on a mini-cliff--this one--
http://calscape.cnps.org/Dudleya-cymosa-%28Canyon-Dudleya%29

or do you think I should not even bother to torture it to death?
sometimes our winters don't get much below -10 for very long Rolling my eyes.
and I've got a nice crevice in part summershade for it, on a warm rock in the winter I'm all ears!

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