Daylilies forum: Do you own any surviving southern dormants?

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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Feb 28, 2016 10:12 AM CST
I am asking this question because I currently own 9 cultivars that are listed as dormant. What made me think about this is .... It was suggested to me to acquire "Siloam Double Classic" because hybridizers in Florida grew this one in the south. It also has the distinction of being quite rust resistant. So .....

Do you live in the south and do you grow any cultivars that are listed as "dormant" which are doing well for you?

The others I have are:

Wild One
Red Volunteer
Galaxy Explosion
Bandit Man
Persian Pattern
Judge Roy Bean
Duchess of D'Orleans
Lavender Stardust

How do you know if a cultivar is a hard dormant or a soft dormant. I am assuming that a soft dormant might survive in the south vs. a hard dormant. Correct?
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Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Feb 28, 2016 11:15 AM CST
I can't answer your question since I'm not in the south, quite the opposite Smiling But, "hard" and "soft" dormant are not official or formal AHS, horticultural or botanical terms and so different people understand them by different meanings. Munson used "soft" dormant to mean a daylily that "rested" for a month or less, a "hard" dormant taking longer. Some people may equate hard and soft with hardiness or not, some think of "hard" dormants as those needing a chilling period, some think of a "hard" dormant as one that dies back early before frosts, and so on and so on.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Feb 28, 2016 5:59 PM CST
Sue - Thanks! So do you think that dormants that require only a brief rest period do survive in Florida? All 9 of the "dormants" I have are doing well right now, but they are new to my garden (planted in late summer/early Fall 2015). I know sometimes it takes until year 3 to find out if the cultivar will survive central Florida climate and temps. Often they do not come back by the 3rd year. Though I have only previously had experience with seedlings, not mature fans.

I was hoping maybe some others here on the forum that live in the south have had good experience with some "dormant" cultivars and would be willing to list those they are very happy with. I do know that there is one or two folks who say they will NOT try to grow any more dormants at their locations in Florida.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
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Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Feb 28, 2016 6:48 PM CST
I really don't know which ones would do best there - we don't actually have a good understanding of why some don't do well. It may have nothing to do with needing a rest, it could simply be heat intolerance for example. Wish I had the answer for you.
Name: Pat Strong
Stone Mountain (Zone 8a)
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Pat236
Feb 28, 2016 9:36 PM CST
Becky, I had Lavender Stardust for one bloom season...it disappeared and never came back. I have Strutters Ball, which is listed as a dormant. It bloomed last year and it looks like it's coming back this year. Royal Palace Prince also listed as a dormant has bloomed for two or three years in garden and has steadily increased. I ordered Purple Cheetah, Rock Solid, and Mountain Wild Flower this fall and will give them a couple of years to see how they perform in my area. We had a rather warm winter this year, but all three cultivars disappeared for a few weeks and are now peeking out. I hope they all bloom this spring. I'm in zone 8 outside of Atlanta.
Pat236
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Feb 28, 2016 9:49 PM CST
Pat - That is interesting about Lavender Stardust. It will be over 2 years now since I received it. Last year it bloomed beautifully for me. It never went completely dormant this Winter either. A few of my other cultivars almost disappeared but not quite, before they started producing new foliage again. Only the two missing plants that I fear died, lost all signs of foliage. I had a warm winter too.

Does dormancy affect blooms?
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
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Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
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Gleni
Feb 29, 2016 1:42 AM CST
I am in the Subtropics, Becky. It rarely gets close to 0 degrees Centigrade here. If it did they would have to cart me off in an ambulance. I have the following registered dormants:


which forms vigorous clumps and never dies back.


which forms vigorous clumps and never dies back.


which dies back and disappears in winter. I have had it for 4 years and it always flowers but the clump does seem to struggle.


which dies back and disappears in winter. I lost one clump last year and the other did not flower. I have had for five years. This year's loss could be due to it being below the bird feeder and I forgot about it amongst all the volunteer seed plants growing there.


which dies back and disappears in winter. Always flowers but can struggle. I have had two years.
[Last edited by Gleni - Feb 29, 2016 1:44 AM (+)]
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Feb 29, 2016 8:56 AM CST
Becky, Munson was in Florida and registered some dormants [he grew all his daylilies under the tall shade of pine trees]. There were also hybridizers in Texas and other southern locations who registered dormants. Hansen in Florida registered a few dormants. Some will be diploids.

If it is possible for you, I would suggest planting dormants in full shade in locations that have hot summers. Arisumi found that daylilies do not grow well at temperatures of 85F and 95F. I suspect that "dormant" daylilies - that is, probably northern bred daylilies, have problems with the high temperatures during southern summers (and perhaps much of the southern year).
Maurice
Name: Stan
Florida Panhandle (Defuniak Sp (Zone 8b)
Region: Gulf Coast Enjoys or suffers hot summers Daylilies Lilies Keeps Horses Dog Lover
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GaNinFl
Feb 29, 2016 12:48 PM CST
@beckygardener

Becky, below are 33 of my 63 daylily's. These are all registered dormant. Some I've had for a couple years now and some that were added last year.
Every single one had adapted well to my last location with exception to 'Lake Norman Spider'. It has never preformed well here in the Panhandle. If you remember all of mine were potted and still are since the move to new home. I'm still in the panhandle and they all look like they are going to perform well again. Even LNS is looking like it wants to grow. Maybe I'll try moving it under a big tree with lots of shade.
To note, they received water almost everyday last year as I had an irrigation system on a timer. They also receive lots of alfalfa pellets and slow release fertilizer in the spring and later again in the fall. I hope they continue to do well because I sure would hate to have to replace that many... Hope this helps in some way.

'American Revolution'
'Autumn Red'
'Aztec Beauty'
'Blonde Goddess'
'Brag On'
'Carolyn Criswell'
'Christmas Ribbon'
'Crimson Pirate'
'Dancing Summerbird'
'Double Bold One'
'Edith Allen Sliger'
'Fellow'
'Frans Hals'
'Golden Butterfly'
'Golden Prize'
'Happy Returns'
'Jolly Jester'
'Lake Norman Spider'
'Lord Cornwallis'
'Moon River Ripples'
'Moses' Fire'
'Prairie Wildfire'
'Razzmatazz'
'Regal Finale'
'Return a Smile'
'Siloam Doodlebug'
'Siloam June Bug'
'Siloam Little Angel'
'Siloam Ury Winniford'
'Stella de Oro'
'Trahlyta'
'Trahlyta's Song'
'Wally'

Stan
HAND I tip my hat to you.
Stan
(Georgia Native in Florida)
http://garden.org/blogs/view/GaNinFl/
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
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beckygardener
Feb 29, 2016 6:41 PM CST
Glen - Thanks for those cultivar names. I see the same thing as you with some of my "dormant" seedlings struggling year after year. Glad to know you do have some that are doing quite well every year and increasing.

Maurice - I do believe you and Sue are possibly correct about the heat more than the lack of long, cold winters causing issues with dormant daylilies. I do have some raised beds in partial shade. I may take your advice and plant the dormants in those beds to see if that helps them survive our hot summers. I have only 1 Munson cultivar (Emperor Butterfly) so far, which is an evergreen not a dormant. I do like his watermark daylilies. I've been looking at Hansen's daylilies, too.

Stan - Wow! Impressive list. Please do continue to tell us how they do each year. Being in the panhandle, you are in a zone cooler than me. That may help your dormants, too. I am sure you stay colder longer in Winter than I do.

Thanks for the cultivar names!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
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Name: Kabby
Lowndesboro, AL (Zone 8a)
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Kabby
Mar 1, 2016 10:01 PM CST
Becky I grow about 2-300 Munsons now and also many spufos. As I walk amongst my Munson daylilies I comment to myself hmm I didn't know that was a dormant. They do wonderfully here. Now on the dormant dip Ufs, I will kill a Burkey cv just by daring to bring it in my yard. Specifically Lola Branham and Kirsten's Corsage. Don't even try them, save your money.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Mar 1, 2016 10:03 PM CST
Thanks, Kabby. Duly noted! Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Larry
Augusta, GA area (Zone 8a)
Daylilies Hybridizer
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LarryW
Mar 1, 2016 10:52 PM CST
Here is a list of the dormants I grow here near Augusta: (note: all are tets)
Alan Lane Agin (Agin) hybridized in the South
Bicolor Beautiful (Carpenter) hybridized in the South
Bloodrayne (Benz) got it late last year, but it is up and growing
Cast Your Crown (Korth) it has done very well here
Coronation Day (Emmerich) has struggled, but it is still living
Dragon Slayer (Polston) it struggled its first two years, since then its fine
Forestlake Ragamuffin (Harding) does very well
Heavenly Pink Fang (Gossard) has good and not so good years
Puffer Fish (Gossard) started with a very small plant and it has struggled
Ruffled Strawberry Parfait (Reckamp) more poor years than good ones
Sunrise Sunset Beautiful (Carpenter) hybridized in the South
Susan Ruoff (Bachman) grows well
Vampire's Kiss (Gossard) grows OK but hasn't increased much
Wren's Song (Stamile) did well on its first year & is breaking ground now

in the past I have grown:
Aftershock (Benz) grew well
Cactus Blossom (Gossard) Grew well first year, died of crown rot second year
Evening Sparkle (Benz) grew well
Mary Lena (JA Rice) Grew very well
Rosy Spiketail (Gossard) grew well
Ruckus ((JA Rice) Grew well
Shabby Chic (Farmer-Stegall) grew well
See Me-Feel Me-Touch Me (Holmes) grew very well
Upon This Rock (Korth) Lived and grew well for 3 years, then died

I have also been hybridizing with many of these plants and have about 20% of my seedlings that are dormant - some crossed with EV or SEV, but others are dormant-dormant crosses. I don't seem to have any higher death rate with the dormant seedlings than I do with others. In fact, we do have a few winter nights that reach low 20's or below, and the dormants are up and growing without a problem while some of the 'green' ones struggle after being frozen back - but by April, they've caught up.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
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beckygardener
Mar 1, 2016 11:38 PM CST
Larry - Thank you for your great list!!! Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!

Helpful information, too. Thumbs up
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
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Name: Arlene
Ponce Inlet, FL (Zone 9a)
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florange
Mar 2, 2016 7:11 AM CST
Becky, when I lived in Marietta, GA most of my daylilies were dormant and they did very well. Now that I'm in 9b, it's a whole different world. This year we had one morning when the temps dropped to 36 for 1 hr. Rest of the time lows were in the low 40's. Dormants require cold hours and in this garden, there just isn't enough.

I have a friend who lives west of Gainesville. Her temps are significantly lower than mine. In the winter her garden routinely experiences 20's and some times it's in the teens. She can grow some dormants very well, but not all. She can't grow any of the tropicals that I can. It's surprising just how different one zone up is from one zone down. Very significant!
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Mar 2, 2016 10:58 AM CST
I'm not sure that there are "dormants" that require winter cold hours. I think some "dormants" probably require summer temperatures that are lower than those in some parts of Florida and other southern regions. I know of no good tests of daylily cold temperature requirements for growth that show that there are any daylily cultivars that require cold.

Hybridizers in locations which do not have as much summer heat as other locations cannot select or hybridize for the ability of daylilies to adapt to such high heat stresses. So "Northern" hybridizers who have or had "dormant" lines (without introducing southern high-summer-heat-bred cultivars into those lines) will have plants that do not grow well in those southern high heat stress locations.

I think northern bred "dormants" will have a tendency to be unable to survive high southern summer heat stress rather than needing cold during winters.

That follows from what Arisumi found when he tested different growing temperatures on daylily growth and flowering. He tested 55°, 65°, 75°, 85°, and 95° F.
He found "At 85° and 95° the plants grew rapidly during the first 3 to 4 weeks and then became progressively chlorotic and the older leaves dried prematurely."
For flowering he found, "Except for 4 plants at 85° F, flowering was obtained only at 75°." That is, only four plants out of 24 flowered when grown at 85F; none of 24 plants flowered when grown at 95F; yet 24/24 plants flowered when grown at 75F. Growth is always slower at low temperatures so there was not enough time to check for flowering at 55F and 65F within the time limits of his experiment. However, 8/16 plants that had been grown at 65F had scapes present when the experiment ended.

So it is unlikely that daylilies hybridized in the north (without the input of southern-selected plants) would be good candidates for high heat southern gardens. Typically northern hybridizers would produce more "dormant" than evergreen introductions and so those plants would not grow well in the south but not because they are "dormant" but because they cannot handle the high heat stresses.

I would think that good examples of northern-bred lines that cannot handle high heat stress of southern locations would be introductions hybridized by Burkey, perhaps Hite, etc.
Maurice
Name: Chris Massengill
Upper East Tennessee, Bluff Ci (Zone 6b)
Clmasse
Mar 2, 2016 12:42 PM CST
I can recommend Ruby Storm and Rock Candy as hardy Florida born dormant daylilies.
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Mar 2, 2016 2:00 PM CST
admmad said:
I think northern bred "dormants" will have a tendency to be unable to survive high southern summer heat stress rather than needing cold during winters.

So it is unlikely that daylilies hybridized in the north (without the input of southern-selected plants) would be good candidates for high heat southern gardens. Typically northern hybridizers would produce more "dormant" than evergreen introductions and so those plants would not grow well in the south but not because they are "dormant" but because they cannot handle the high heat stresses.

I would think that good examples of northern-bred lines that cannot handle high heat stress of southern locations would be introductions hybridized by Burkey, perhaps Hite, etc.


What Maurice is saying makes a lot of sense to me. There are a lot of plants that don't survive the summer heat in my location here in Texas. Oriental poppies are a good example. I've tried them many times and they will grow well in fall, winter and spring and then the summer takes them out. Some of the big fancy alliums and many varieties of daffodils behave the same way. Many, many plants suffer in the summer here even when they can survive it.

As for the daylilies, I may be testing the theory since I'm acquiring some northern bred daylilies. Last summer was not typical and what I do have did fine. I'm growing dor, sev and eve types and so far I can't tell any difference in growth/bloom between them. There is more growth difference between tets and dips in that so far tets are much slower to increase. At the same time they tend to have larger fans and appear healthy.

Donald
Name: Arlene
Ponce Inlet, FL (Zone 9a)
Tropicals Daylilies Bromeliad Region: Florida Enjoys or suffers hot summers Birds
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florange
Mar 2, 2016 2:24 PM CST
Maurice, interesting concept, but that friend I mentioned who lives west of Gainesville, FL ... she gets hotter earlier in the season and it lasts longer at her place. In the summer she will top out at 92-94 while here on the beach we seldom get over 85. With your premise, I should be able to grow some dormants and she should not. Not true! That's why I truly believe that cold helps. Our soil temperatures will reach 81-82 during the summer. My friend's soil will get over 90 degrees where it gets full sun. When I have a daylily that isn't happy down here and it is going grassy, I send it to her. Usually it will straighten up and grow up there. I'm beachside in Volusia County (Central FL) and she is in Dixie County in north FL.

Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Mar 2, 2016 2:44 PM CST
florange said:she gets hotter earlier in the season and it lasts longer at her place. In the summer she will top out at 92-94 while here on the beach we seldom get over 85. With your premise, I should be able to grow some dormants and she should not. Not true! That's why I truly believe that cold helps. Our soil temperatures will reach 81-82 during the summer. My friend's soil will get over 90 degrees where it gets full sun. When I have a daylily that isn't happy down here and it is going grassy, I send it to her. Usually it will straighten up and grow up there. I'm beachside in Volusia County (Central FL) and she is in Dixie County in north FL.


OK - lets look at the situations in depth.
1) Your friend has measured her actual air temperatures and soil temperatures rather than going by the nearest weather station?
2) You have measured your actual air and soil temperatures rather than going by the nearest weather station?
3) You have both done this enough times throughout the year and in enough years that you can be confident that over a number of years and throughout the year she actually has higher temperatures for longer, etc?

That is we do not want to be misled by possible differences due to a few measurements if the overall differences would contradict the specific isolated measurements.

4) your friend plants the daylilies she received from you in the same growing conditions as you had them in your garden (e. g. full sun to full sun, shade to shade, etc.)

I have done analyses of the amount of chilling hours and units that Gainesville receives over ten year averages of winter weather - depending on the model used for the accumulation of chilling Gainesville gets no chilling hours to some chilling units for low chill plants. I can try the same for your location to see how much difference there is.

Is there a nearby town that would have at least a ten year weather record?

Do you recall the names of the registered dormant daylilies that did not do well for you and that you sent to your friend and they did well? And any that did not do well for her either?

How do southern-bred dormants grow for you? At one point Kaskel had bred some dormants in his Miami location - unfortunately I do not think they were ever registered.
Maurice

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