If this or other name discussions are private, how would others who are interested in plant names learn about them? I started the discussion, I'm interested. Reading the discussion is voluntary for whoever might be interested. Most people aren't attorneys but they still show various legal proceedings on C-SPAN, for those who are interested.

There's no possible way to thank those involved for their massive efforts here, but please know I appreciate it! I'm on the edge of my seat by now...! At any time that I find it incomprehensible or taxing, I can stand up & walk away from my computer and go check on my plants. ;)

I also find your detective processes interesting, despite my complete lack of knowledge of taxonomy or botany. Carol - when I find my interest has flagged on a subject, I just stop opening the thread.

Atlas of Florida Plants:

Asimina angustifolia -

Synonyms

Asimina angustifolia - A. Gray ( non Rafinesque 1840.) TYPE: Without data (lectotype: Dunal, Monogr. Anonac. pl. 10. 1817). Lectotypified by Kral, Brittonia 12: 266. 1960.
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Asimina longifolia Kral, Brittonia 12: 265. 1960 BASIONYM: Asimina angustifolia A. Gray 1886, non Rafinesque 1840.

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Pityothamnus angustifolius Small, Man. S.E. Fl. 531, 1504. 1933. BASIONYM: Asimina angustifolia A. Gray 1886, non Rafinesque 1840.

--

http://florida.plantatlas.usf....

An essay on lectotypification

http://www.jstor.org/stable/12...

I took a snip of the essay on lectotypification in case the link doesn't work for some, jstor often won't let you view it. There's three pages but you have to sign up to read the rest, it says it's free for those three but the explanation on that page is sufficient to justify my suspicions that Kral ignored other data. And there you have it my friends, the source which justifies the illegitimacy of Kral.

I read the entire essay back on the 24th and came to the opposite conclusion and an understanding of why this species was lectotypified. He is still living. I'm sure your conjecture could be tested. These are his Titles and expertise,
Perhaps he would respond to your concerns.

Robert Kral
Professor Emeritus, Department of Biological Sciences, Vanderbilt University; Director/Curator of Vanderbilt University Herbarium [VDB] at Botanical Research Institute of Texas
Research: Flora of Alabama, central Tennessee, and southeastern U.S.; Xyridaceae; Cyperaceae.

Actually, the essay you cite does nothing to confirm your "suspicions". It is the scientific equivalent of a letter to the editor written by Francis Fosberg in 1992 shortly before his death, in which he offers up his opinion that botanists aren't being sufficiently rigorous when re-naming plants. It was sort of his last contribution to a field he had dedicated his professional life to. It's also an opinion he freely admits isn't shared by most of his colleagues.*

By the way, Robert Kral, who you are so freely slandering here, is a highly respected botanist who taught at Vanderbilt University for nearly 50 years and has made countless contributions to our understanding of the flora of the southeastern US.

* In the 24 years since that essay was written, the re-naming of plants has only accelerated because the tools we have for discovering the relationships between organisms (which is what taxonomy is really about) have improved beyond what anyone could have imagined in 1992.

I think you misunderstand. I am not freely slandering Kral. It is on the records of the IPNI that the name is illegitimate, or superfluous, and on the Florida Plant Atlas that it is a synonym. I am merely quoting the sources. He may have been a "great" man, that does not say he followed procedure? If he did then please give me the resource which shows that he did, and at the same time write to the Florida Atlas site and tell them they are wrong and that his entry is not a lectotype.

I'm willing to admit anything if you can come up with the resource.

Why the rise to defend so verociously? The reference to what the resources say does not slander the man. It is merely stating what the resources say whatever the reasons behind making the plant a lectotype. Facts are facts, let's not get emotional about facts.

I don't ignore the thread. After awhile I just scroll quickly to find out the final result.

There's nothing wrong with just wanting to know the answer. I'm not sure this discussion has reached that point yet. If it did and is now just about the subtleties of the name, I missed it too.

And good news! You do not need to scroll, much anyway, and that's one of my fav things about this site. Once ID'd pics are associated with the plant database, they appear labeled in the ID discussion, right in the initial post. I prefer to do mine as an upload so I can include date & location. Associating from a discussion doesn't have those options. Not that I upload every pic included when asking for ID, but if they show anatomical features not already represented in the DB, I do since they are as likely to help someone else ID as they did me and those who helped me.

Another handy thing I love about this site is the "first unread" link at the top of any discussion I'm not visiting for the first time. (And that is also smart enough to change to "jump to the end" if there's nothing new since I last clicked it. Yum, good cookie!) You prob already know that and it may not have helped in this one with so many detailed replies.

For discussions that doesn't result in associating pics with database entry, you can hit the END key on your keyboard and scroll up.

I hope one of those gets you where you want to go more easily & or faster.

Love the "first unread" button! Saves a lot of mouse cramps.

You don't even have to use that button if you choose "yes" to the question "Automatically jump to the first unread post in threads?" in the Site Preferences section of your profile page.

Sometimes, I like to review parts of a thread, so I don't use that in my preferences. So many pictures that need to be looked at again, and so many comments that were skimmed over....not to mention going back to check spelling of names in the midst of typing them. I love the way Dave has this site set up! We're having a couple of issues at the moment, but he will get it fixed. In any case, it's only one click to first unread. Try Orchid Species. com sometime, and you'll find out about mouse cramp!

I found Kral's original notes on Asimina from 1960. You can read the whole thing online for free if you sign up, well worth doing if you want to discover what happened. It's complicated but can be understood if you read it more than once.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2...

There is a drawing on page 268 of Asimina longifolia var, spatulata which WARD later decided was different enough so it was renamed Asimina spatulata.




The plant is in the location found as indicated on the Alabama Plant Atlas.

http://www.floraofalabama.org/...

CITATION: ASIMINA SPATULATA (Kral) D. B. Ward, Novon 11: 360. 2001.

Synonyms given at the bottom of the page.

The record linked to the CoL which now states Asimina spatulata as accepted:

http://herbarium.botanik.univi...

Asimina spatulata is currently accepted on the CoL..

http://www.catalogueoflife.org...

It's my opinion, having read the history of the naming, that Asimina longifolia var. spatulata is a superfluous entry and should be deleted.

Tiffany, you can, in my view, safely add your plant to Asimina spatulata.

I have written a brief summary of my views on what happened regarding the naming of Asimina longifolia but until or unless the CoL updates their entry it's of no use to this discussion. The CoL have updated only one part of the changes but failed to remove the original A. longifolia var. spatulata entry. It's my view that the CoL A. longifolia entry should also be changed to reflect the name A. angustifolia as found on the Atlas of Florida plants and the Plant List.

You're right, Janet. The herbarium cited by the CoL does identify A. longifolia var. spatulata as a synonym for A. spatulata, so I've made that change in our database. The same herbarium, however, identifies A. angustifolia as a synonym for A. longifolia, so I won't be making any changes in the status shown in our database for those two plants. If we're going to treat the herbarium as the authority for one change, we can't ignore it for another. The Atlas of Florida Plants is not a taxonomic database and The Plant List is too full of errors to be reliable, so the status of A. angustifolia and A. longifolia in our database will continue to conform with the information in the other major taxonomic databases (the CoL, ITIS, and GRIN).

I think 'we' or somebody should contact CoL to clarify the situation zuzu.

Not all taxonomic databases are going to be completely accurate.

Taxonomic databases do not use the same resources for all their entries (which this site is doing), they use different resources.

I understand the need to stay with what is viewed as accurate but nothing is a hundred % accurate.

CoL has made the error of not removing the previous entry of Asimina longifolia var. spatulata. How many more?

Humans make errors, and databases are kept by humans, so databases can only be as accurate as the humans in control of them and that takes a lot of keeping up with.

The Flora of Alabama and Florida sites are "A member of the University of South Florida family of PlantAtlas.org sites"

There is a person to contact at the bottom, "For more information, contact: Brian R. Keener, Ph.D."

Citation Information:

Keener, B. R., A.R. Diamond, L. J. Davenport, P. G. Davison, S. L. Ginzbarg, C. J. Hansen, C. S. Major, D. D. Spaulding, J. K. Triplett, and M. Woods. 2016.

I wouldn't dismiss the information so easily.

I'll leave it to you to contact the CoL, Janet. If I had to write a letter every time someone questioned the status of a plant, I'd need 50 secretaries. I'm satisfied with the status provided by the CoL, ITIS, and GRIN.

Janet & Zuzu, thanks again for the efforts & investigations!

@ctcarol the pics should be labeled at the top now, Asimina spatulata.

It's been a long journey Tiffany, it's amazing how much information can be found if you look in the right places. There's more I would like to find out yet after reading Kral's revision.

I might write to the CoL zuzu, if I get around to it. I found contact info under 'info' at the left side, they encourage users to give feedback.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org...