Sempervivum and Jovibarba forum: Sempervivum 'Excalibur'

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Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
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valleylynn
May 29, 2016 7:43 PM CST

Moderator

It seems we have two different plants in the entry for 'Excalibur'.
All of the Fernwood photos show a smooth darker green semp with tips and trim at certain times of the year.
The other is very different, slightly fuzzy with tufts and fairly long cilia lining the leaves.
Hen and chicks (Sempervivum 'Excalibur')

@JungleShadows Kevin do you know this semp, or have a description of it?
[Last edited by valleylynn - May 29, 2016 7:43 PM (+)]
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Name: Jo Ann Mc Brayer
NW Oregon (Zone 8a)
Sempervivums
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ricos
May 30, 2016 10:47 AM CST
Lynn
The Excalibur that I have is small to medium sized rosetts with fuzz and many extremely long stolons. It can make quite a tangled mess in a flat. But we already know that just because I have a name on something does not mean that it is correct. Whistling Another one that I need to verify.
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
May 30, 2016 3:02 PM CST

Moderator

Can you show us a photo of your Jo Ann?
Name: Jo Ann Mc Brayer
NW Oregon (Zone 8a)
Sempervivums
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ricos
May 30, 2016 10:22 PM CST
Lynn ... beleive it or not.....I can......I just found the charger for the camera battery this afternoon. The battery is charging an i will take some pics tomorrow. Ya hoo Hurray!
I could only find one pic on the data base but i am still learning my way around and will look again now.
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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springcolor
May 30, 2016 10:39 PM CST
Here are more pictures of my Excalibur. Nothing like Fernwoods. I do not remember where I got this one.
Thumb of 2016-05-31/springcolor/3ccca7


Thumb of 2016-05-31/springcolor/f86db0


Thumb of 2016-05-31/springcolor/b5ba23

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Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
May 31, 2016 8:00 AM CST

Moderator

Kevin has an old catalog that has this one in it. He is going to look and see what is should look like.

Nice photo Julia.

Jo Ann I am so happy that you found your camera charger. Hurray!
Name: Jo Ann Mc Brayer
NW Oregon (Zone 8a)
Sempervivums
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ricos
May 31, 2016 6:11 PM CST
Wow Julia ... that is a beautiful Semp but nothing like my Excalibur.
this is the top down view
Thumb of 2016-06-01/ricos/2fc8a9
Here is the side view.
I figured it was called Excalibur as the long stolons represent the sword thrusting out.
Perhaps my immagination gone way too far. Rolling on the floor laughing

Thumb of 2016-06-01/ricos/0b39a0

It has a bit of fuzz all over but yours is downright petable !
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Dog Lover Foliage Fan Greenhouse Container Gardener Heucheras Sedums
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springcolor
May 31, 2016 10:32 PM CST
Mine doesn't have those long stolons either. Oh the mystery thickens!!
Sempervivum for Sale
Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
JungleShadows
Jun 5, 2016 7:47 PM CST
OK, here's description from when it was introduced:

Excalibur: Short, green leaves with rosy tips and backs. A flat rosette with long stolons. Velvet. Medium.

Hope that helps!

Kevin
Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums Sedums Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 1
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gg5
Jun 5, 2016 7:53 PM CST
Thanks Kevin! I tip my hat to you.
Plants bring me peace and calm, more of what we all need Smiling
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Jun 5, 2016 8:35 PM CST

Moderator

Thank you Kevin. I added that information to the database entry.

Fernwood's photo match the velvet texture and long stolons, and short leaves.
April, 2004
May, 2004
Doesn't have a date.

@turini Wolfgang do you have a recent photo of your 'Excalibur'?

Mountain Crest Gardens: http://mountaincrestgardens.com/sempervivum-excalibur/
Sunny Border: http://www.sunnyborder.com/plants/item/Sempervivum/SPEXC.htm...
Sedum Photos: this one does not have red stolons, but I can see color starting on the tips? Jo Ann is yours in more shade, the color looks wrong? http://www.sedumphotos.net/v/semps-ae/Sempervivum+Excalibur+...
http://www.biolib.cz/cz/image/id115827/

Julia yours look to be fuzzy instead of velvet, and the stolons on yours are very short.
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Dog Lover Foliage Fan Greenhouse Container Gardener Heucheras Sedums
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springcolor
Jun 5, 2016 11:15 PM CST
Lynn, mine seems to be an imposer so delete my photo.
Sempervivum for Sale
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Jun 5, 2016 11:37 PM CST

Moderator

Julia do you know where you got it from?
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Dog Lover Foliage Fan Greenhouse Container Gardener Heucheras Sedums
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springcolor
Jun 5, 2016 11:57 PM CST
No, I got it long time ago. My best guess is a big box store.
Sempervivum for Sale
Name: Jo Ann Mc Brayer
NW Oregon (Zone 8a)
Sempervivums
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ricos
Jun 6, 2016 12:45 AM CST
My guess Julia, is that you got your Excalibur at Molbecks. If you look on sedumphotos ,net you will find two Excalibur...one is the one i have and the other is the one You have. The real color of the one I have with long stolons is what is in my pic not the pic on sedumphotos. It has only the very faintest hint of tips and it has been in the sun. The stolons are not red either. I suppose it could be a selection from the original but it's not close enough to the description for me. noid
I found some Bronze Pastel a few days ago that are soo much darker bronze that if i propagated only those and kept selecting for more intense color, it would not take long to have something that did not look like the original. As a propagator I guess it is my responsibility to keep a variery as true to the original as possible but as a breader I am always looking for improvements in a variety. Sometimes I just like some clones better than others of the same variety and those are the ones I propagate. I am wondering now if that is irresponsible. How far away from the original does one have to take something to have a "new variety" ? At least with newer varieties we have a photo record of what they should look like. The old ones...not so much. Here I am discussing ethics. Kevin any thoughts.?
Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums Sedums Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 1
Garden Art Birds Dog Lover Cat Lover Region: Pacific Northwest Hummingbirder
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gg5
Jun 6, 2016 1:04 AM CST
Names not Kevin but here are my thoughts...even if colors change (darker or lighter) usually the shape and size and basic coloration are the same, so if you are taking only offsets (or leave cuttings) then you probably won't significantly change what you have...however I think large scale growers take seed from their named varieties and call these seedlings the same cultivar - this is where there is a significant potential for change.
Or you could get a naturally occurring sport but again, it would look very different I tip my hat to you.
Plants bring me peace and calm, more of what we all need Smiling
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Jun 6, 2016 8:59 AM CST

Moderator

The sport should be given a different name, after extensive research and time to determine if it is stable.

Jo Ann does your semp ever color up like the description?
Michael's Golden puts out offsets with varying degrees of color, lighter or darker. But they all still look like the original clone.
Maybe we should start a thread with photo comparison of semps that do this?

Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
JungleShadows
Jun 6, 2016 5:50 PM CST
Jo Ann, I do agree that you can select for clones that have certain better traits. One of the breeders in my home town in MA would grow out stock plants of his new hybrids and then pick only the few best ones to use to propagate, destroying the rest. I think we've all experienced the "Gee that's the best I've ever seen cultivar X". Some of it is culture, some of it is picking up small mutations in a vegetatively propagated plant.

To NAME something like this as a new name it should be a SIGNIFICANT difference and also let the growers know "this is an improved version of cultivar X". Ed Skrocki named 'Rubikon Improved' as the original seedling he named rotted badly. the "improved" was a sister seedling that was very similar but not a rotter.

When propagating a cultivar I do think it is important we select "typical" plants for propagation. For some of the really variable ones, like Killer, this is difficult!

OK my two cents!

Kevin
Name: Jo Ann Mc Brayer
NW Oregon (Zone 8a)
Sempervivums
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ricos
Jun 7, 2016 12:22 AM CST
All of this discussion has been very helpful. No I would never think of trying to name something that was simply a darker shace than the original and I have no respect for growers who take seed of a named variety and sell the seedlings as the named variety. That happened to Penstemon Huskers Red in just a few short years.
Wayne's place is a great place to see the unstable varieties at their best...multiple flats and many differences or perhaps I just look too closley.
I will take some pictures of the ones I have that are labled Jungle Shadows next week so you all can see. It never turns red and has watermarks so i think it's a NOID. Also ,it is very stable even to the point of not changing color much with the seasons. It can get pretty big and it will go well with "pittoni montanum " in a pot or basket Hilarious!
Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
JungleShadows
Jun 7, 2016 7:51 AM CST
Jo Ann,

There is a possibility that yours is the real Jungle Shadows as it has watermarks more rarely than do many of its kids. Jungle Shadows is never red though, it's always violet-purple often times grey with a purple edge. These are the same colors in the border bearded iris Jungle Shadows for which it was named.

Kevin

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