Lilies forum: Seed bearing martagons?

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Name: Dave
Southern wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Region: Wisconsin Lilies Dog Lover Garden Photography Daylilies
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Nhra_20
Jun 14, 2016 5:47 PM CST

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Name: Tracey
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Tomato Heads Pollen collector Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Cat Lover
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Photography Seed Starter Region: Wisconsin
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magnolialover
Jun 15, 2016 6:37 AM CST

Moderator

Martagons are very easy to cross with other martagons. The pods get very fat in August when there has been a successful pollination.
Tracey
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Jun 15, 2016 7:31 AM CST
See the one on the right that points skyward in your first picture---that's a classic telltale sign of fertilization with most any lily. There can be exceptions of course, but keywords are 'pod points skyward'. Another much earlier indicator can also be a stigma that makes a sweeping bend skyward within 24 hours. Again, these are not fool proof but I've found them to be pretty good indicators.

Pod on the right with successful pollination, pod on the left, unsuccessful. One will grow and produce seed or chaff and the other will drop off.
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Skyward stigma within 12 to 24 hours after pollination.


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Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Jun 15, 2016 11:50 AM CST
As Tracey says, martagon seed pods get very fat, and you should notice the difference (compared to asiatics) in just a couple weeks' time. Martagon pods also have six very noticeable wings. These are the largest pods I've ever had, but the size isn't too far off from normal.
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Compared with a typical asiatic:
Liium callosum
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As Lorn mentioned, pointing toward the sky is usually an indication of good seed to come. In the pic below, it's easy to determine that all but one of these were not successfully pollinated. But what about the one on the right? I had wondered about it, too. In this case, it yielded many fertile seeds that I have germinated.
Lilium papilliferum
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On the other hand, here's some more questionable pods. Lorn had predicted they would not produce good seed, and he was right. None of them did, and all they contained was chaff.
asiatic hybrid
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Name: Dave
Southern wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Region: Wisconsin Lilies Dog Lover Garden Photography Daylilies
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Nhra_20
Jun 15, 2016 3:27 PM CST
Thanks for the help everyone. As I am new to this part of lilies. But the pod in the top picture I hand pollinated to give it a shot. If it goes through, it will be a cross between 'Sunny Morning' (pollen parent) × 'Fairy Morning' pod parent. This is actually rather exiting
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Jun 15, 2016 3:54 PM CST
Dave, cross pollenating and hybridizing is one of the most interesting and satisfying aspects of growing lilies. It makes lilies a 365 day thing--something to do most every day it seems. Try a few this season. I think you will enjoy it a lot.

POD PARENT X POLLEN PARENT, pod parent is always listed first..
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Jun 15, 2016 4:21 PM CST
Roosterlorn said: It makes lilies a 365 day thing--something to do most every day it seems.


nodding Green Grin! nodding Green Grin! nodding
Name: Dave
Southern wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Region: Wisconsin Lilies Dog Lover Garden Photography Daylilies
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Nhra_20
Jun 15, 2016 4:28 PM CST
Thank you Lorn. I'm going to give it a shot. Nothing to lose right. Never know what may come of it. Might be a good thing my in-laws said i could use some of their land!

Also, this is a picture of the plant in the second picture
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Looks like it might now have 2-3 pods turned skyward now. So o have those 2 martagon lilies in the same area, no other lilies within 15 feet I would say, and I do not have any other lilies open yet, and they are my only 2 martagons. So chances are the extra pods that I did not hand pollinated, probably still pollinated each other? Am i correct in thinking that? The chances of them pollinating with say an asiatic, without doing embryo rescue or in a test tube is very slim

Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Jun 16, 2016 9:25 AM CST
Yes, it looks like you'll have 3 pods. I don't think any Martagons support self pollenation so any extra pods that develop were pollenated by insects with pollen from your other Martagon. The open pollenated pod(s) will produce a combination of good seed and chaff depending on how many visits over time it had from insects like bees. If it had multiple visits it could be full of good seed.
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Jun 16, 2016 3:32 PM CST
Roosterlorn said:I don't think any Martagons support self pollenation...

Correct, but martagons can produce apomictic seed. Apomixis is the production of seed without pollination. For whatever reason (and there are theories), the ovary is spurred to produce seed without the normal union of male and female egg and sperm. Consequently, the seed is an exact copy of the pod parent.

Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Jun 16, 2016 4:31 PM CST
So they can produce seed on their own like L. regale. That's the part I wasn't sure of and was hoping you would say so if they did. So, Dave, my answer is really only half correct. There could also be apomictic seed in your open pollenated pod. I learned something, too. Thanks Rick! Thumbs up
[Last edited by Roosterlorn - Jun 16, 2016 4:37 PM (+)]
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Name: Dave
Southern wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Region: Wisconsin Lilies Dog Lover Garden Photography Daylilies
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Nhra_20
Jun 16, 2016 6:07 PM CST
The lily learning curve Rolling on the floor laughing
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Jun 16, 2016 7:25 PM CST
Roosterlorn said:There could also be apomictic seed in your open pollenated pod.


That is also correct. A pod could contain both apomictic seed and seed pollenated in the normal way. Some species of plants (nearly) always reproduce apomicticly, like dandelions. Others, not so much, like martagons. Most species of plants cannot generate apomictic seed.
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Seed Starter
Annuals Container Gardener Garden Photography
Australis
Jun 16, 2016 7:36 PM CST
I'm finding this interesting. Do martagons often produce apomictic seed, Rick?
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Jun 16, 2016 8:46 PM CST
I don't think I'd say often or rarely, maybe occasionally? I need to read up on this, but I don't think the impetus(es) is well understood. I suspect under certain conditions ( environmental or variations in pollenation) the frequency will also differ.
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Seed Starter
Annuals Container Gardener Garden Photography
Australis
Jun 16, 2016 8:56 PM CST
Thanks Rick. I haven't come across much information on the topic (apomixis in liliums), so do you have any suggestions as to where I might be able to learn more about it?
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Jun 17, 2016 1:43 PM CST
I was recently reading Dick Fox's book on martagons where he said there was a man at a show with a "seedling" he just registered. When people looked at it, they realized it was Brocade. He got an apomictic seed and didn't realize it!
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Jun 18, 2016 6:50 PM CST
Can't say I've done a good overview, but Gene Fox's book (Martagons) give a good, easy to understand synopsis. He mentions an article in the 2003 Lily Yearbook which I found not very helpful. It confirms that some questions I've had are valid, but doesn't answer them (!).

There's a 320 page book on Apomixis in Plants: it's only $397.....
Name: ursula
Chile (Zone 9b)
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Mutisia
Jun 18, 2016 7:04 PM CST
only $397?????
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Jun 18, 2016 7:14 PM CST
nodding Rolling my eyes.

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