Daylilies forum: Is this a re-bloom scape?

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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
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beckygardener
Jun 20, 2016 10:13 AM CST
This issue has had me wondering. I need someone to explain/clarify re-bloom scapes to me.

This seedling produced a scape and bloomed. Now there is a new scape (before the old one has completely turned brown). What I had originally was 1 fan. When the first scape appeared, it seemed to divide the fan into 2 fans. Now a scape has formed and is blooming again from 1 of the current 2 fans. So is this a re-bloom or is it a first scape on what may be the second fan? The first scape bloomed it's first bloom on May 5, 2016. This new scape had it's first bloom today:

Photo of 2 fans and 2 scapes from of seedling:

Thumb of 2016-06-20/beckygardener/ea9e4d

The blooms looked exactly alike on both scapes.
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[Last edited by beckygardener - Jun 20, 2016 10:17 AM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 20, 2016 11:04 AM CST
Well, to me if it is not on the same fan it is not rebloom. It would be the first scape on that fan!
[Last edited by Seedfork - Jul 4, 2016 6:42 AM (+)]
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Ontario, Canada (Zone 5a)
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gargoyl52
Jun 20, 2016 11:07 AM CST
I'm interested in this as well. I have 1 fan of "Here Lies Butch" which is blooming right now. The first flower just opened with 3 more on the scape to open yet. Today I noticed a new scape starting to come up.
Becky...if it was a second fan that just formed, wouldn't it be too young to bloom?
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 20, 2016 11:20 AM CST
gargoyl52,
If you only have one fan and now you have two scapes one still blooming and the other new scape coming on that would be rebloom. If the second scape came on early enough to bloom at the same time as the fist one then to me that would be instant rebloom, I have a few doing that.
Name: James
South Bend, IN (Zone 5b)
Hostas Enjoys or suffers cold winters Birds Seed Starter Annuals Region: Indiana
Region: United States of America Dog Lover Daylilies Container Gardener Plant and/or Seed Trader
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JWWC
Jun 20, 2016 11:23 AM CST
It's a rebloom scape. The AHS definition of rebloom is to have more than one bloom cycle per year.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 20, 2016 12:14 PM CST
The way daylilies bloom is tied completely to their growing points. A growing point is dead centre of the fan between the leaves that are produced on one side and the leaves that are produced on the other side.

The growing point produces those leaves.

When the fan is no longer juvenile, that is, it is mature or adult, it stops produces leaves and the growing point becomes the scape. When a fan produces a scape it is finished.

The easiest situation to think about is a crown with one single fan. When that crown blooms the fan has finished its job. The growing point of that fan is gone - it is all used up in producing the scape, its buds and branches, etc. The crown would be finished and die except that there are axillary growing points (axillary meristems) that can produce leaves. There is one axillary growing point or bud on either side of the scape. Each axillary bud is associated with a leaf of the old fan. After that single fan produces a scape one or two (or sometimes more) axillary buds start to grow. They will produce replacement fans. The growing points of the new replacement fans will only produce leaves until they are mature and then they will produce a scape and the process/cycle will start all over again.

Rebloom nearly always comes from a replacement fan. It is rare for a true single fan to produce two scapes. In short season growing areas (the north) it is sometimes possible to see what looks like two scapes on a single fan with some cultivars that have "left-over" scapes from a previous year and a scape for the current year.

@beckygardener it is rebloom. It also is the first and only scape from the second fan. Rebloom happens when a crown is growing well enough to produce new fans in succession in the same growing season that bloom in the same growing season in which they were first produced.

The normal cycle is small fan, fan grows larger becomes mature, fan produces a scape. New fan, fan grows larger becomes mature, fan produces a scape.

In short season locations, locations with cool summers, locations where the plant is not provided with good growing conditions, etc., the sequence ends more or less at fan produces a scape each year. In locations where the growing season is long, the plant is provided with optimum growing conditions, etc., the sequence can repeat one or more times - that is the crown/plant can rebloom one or more times each year.

Maurice
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 20, 2016 12:33 PM CST
Well, I am sorry I do apologize, I felt so sure that it was not rebloom if it was on a separate fan, I thought that would be a separate plant and for a plant to have rebloom it must have bloomed a first time(my logic seems to have been illogical). I do have fans with two scapes per fan and if one scape is still blooming before the other blooms out, I guess that is instant rebloom, and it the first scape has bloomed out I guess it is then still considered just rebloom, even if the two scapes were on the same fan?
[Last edited by Seedfork - Jun 20, 2016 12:53 PM (+)]
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Name: Judy
Louisiana (Zone 9b)
Region: Louisiana Region: Gulf Coast Hybridizer Seller of Garden Stuff
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judydu2
Jun 20, 2016 3:50 PM CST
Seedfork said:Well, to me if it is not on the same scape it is not rebloom. It would be the first scape on that fan!



If on the same scape, the plant would be considered to be a bud-builder.

http://www.daylilies.org/ahs_dictionary/budbuilding.html
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 20, 2016 3:59 PM CST
I am just so messed up today, that should have read "Well, to me if it is not on the same "Fan" not scape, it is not rebloom. It would be the first scape on that fan!" I do have some bud builders, sorry(again) for using the wrong word there.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 20, 2016 4:02 PM CST
@seedfork
To know if there are two scapes on the same fan one would have to examine the growth pattern of the fan very closely. We would need to look at the normal growth pattern of leaves and then compare that with the pattern of leaves on the plant with multiple scapes.

If we label the two sides of a fan as left and right then if a leaf has been produced on the right side the next leaf is produced on the left side and the next leaf after that is produced on the right side again. The leaves are produced on alternate sides of the crown. When the growing point becomes the scape it should have a leaf on the left and a leaf on its right side. The pattern would look like this < s > where < is a leaf on the left side and > is a leaf on the right side, s represents the scape. The pattern for the entire fan might look like this <<<<< s >>>>>> The fan had 11 leaves, five "left" leaves and six "right leaves" and a scape.

Usually what happens after the scape has been produced, in cultivars that can rebloom and might do so, is that a new fan starts to grow new leaves after the first scape has been produced. The pattern for the "fan" from above might look like this when the first new leaf is produced <<<<< > s >>>>>>

The pattern for the "fan" from above, after the five new leaves have been grown by the new replacement fan would look like this <<<<<<<>>>s>>>>>>
There are 16 leaves in the pattern. Eleven of the leaves were produced by the original fan. Five new leaves were produced by the new replacement fan.

Now lets say that the new replacement fan produces its own scape. The pattern would become <<<<<<< s >>> s >>>>>>

Complications
Some of the leaves produced by the original growing point ("fan") may age, yellow and die naturally during the growth.

In a typical growing season and under average growing conditions, the axillary growing points will become buds and rest until the first scape starts to develop. That usually means that the last leaf produced by the original growing point would be large and the first leaf produced by the new replacement growing point would be smaller. So the pattern would be <<<<< (five larger leaves) <<>>> (smaller leaves becoming larger with each leaf) s (six larger leaves) >>>>>>
We would expect to see a large leaf on one side of the first scape and a somewhat smaller leaf on the other side. There should be a noticeable reversal of the normal sequence of leaf sizes. That is, normally the sequence is smaller leaves produced first and later leaves are larger. After the scape is produced the next leaf would be expected to be smaller since it would be the first leaf of the new growing point or bud.

However, I think that some crowns/fans grow so quickly in the appropriate locations and conditions that the new replacement growing point does not form a bud - it simply develops and grows as the leaves of the first fan are produced. So it becomes a large growing point before it produces its first leaf - the first leaf it produces is not as small as would be expected to have developed from a resting bud. Then we would have to carefully measure the length of the last leaf produced before the scape and the length of the first leaf produced after the scape. I have done this a couple of times and found that the first leaf produced after the scape is smaller than the last leaf produced before the scape.

My conclusion is that even when it appears that two scapes are produced by one fan they actually are not. To conclude that two scapes were produced by one fan (growing point) I would want to see that the length of the first leaf produced after the scape is longer or as long as (but is not shorter at all) than the last leaf produced before the scape.
Maurice
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 20, 2016 4:46 PM CST
I need a more trained eye than mine to look at these photos I just took. What I see is just two fans and four scapes.
on the left fan a dying drying up scape and a new scape, and on the right fan two scapes with buds or blooms.
I tried to get as good a shot of these as I could so I hope they can be seen well enough to explain the growth pattern.

Thumb of 2016-06-20/Seedfork/19411c

Individual shots of the fans.
Thumb of 2016-06-20/Seedfork/5cc185
Thumb of 2016-06-20/Seedfork/b4ba57

Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 20, 2016 5:47 PM CST
@admmad,
Will you take a look at the above photos and tell me what you see? I am just seeing two fans, but I know you will see it with a trained eye.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 20, 2016 6:46 PM CST
@seedfork
I'm sorry but I cannot see enough of the plants to determine the patterns. Usually when I look for details in growth I have to move leaves out of the way, in one direction or another direction and push fans in certain directions, then look at the plants from different angles, etc. Photographs seldom catch all the details needed.
Maurice
Name: Judy
Louisiana (Zone 9b)
Region: Louisiana Region: Gulf Coast Hybridizer Seller of Garden Stuff
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judydu2
Jun 20, 2016 9:06 PM CST
Cultivars can produce two scapes per fan at the same time. It's not such an unusual occurance.
[Last edited by judydu2 - Jun 20, 2016 9:08 PM (+)]
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
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beckygardener
Jun 20, 2016 10:02 PM CST
Maurice and Judy - Thank you for your explanations. I do believe that one fan can produce 1 or even 2 scapes. I've seen it in my own garden. But I am never completely sure about a re-bloom scape.

Larry - I can see what you are talking about in your photos. I have seen something very similar with some of my daylilies.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 21, 2016 6:05 AM CST
@seedfork
Here are the sorts of questions I would ask myself looking at your photos, to try and determine what had happened.
I have added a couple of labels to the photo below.
Thumb of 2016-06-21/admmad/e53a7e
The dried scape looks like it is between the two fans. The question becomes, was there originally only one fan and it produced that scape and then all its leaves aged and dried? If there was only one original fan did it produce two replacement fans?
On the photo below I have labelled several leaves with numbers.
Thumb of 2016-06-21/admmad/943df0
Leaf 1 looks like the last leaf produced before the scape beside it. Its length would need to have been measured.
Leaf 2 looks like a fragment of the next leaf produced after the scape beside it - Its length (entire) would need to have been measured.
Leaf 3 looks like the last leaf produced before the next scape. Its length would need to have been measured.
Leaf 4 looks like the first leaf produced after the scape beside it. Its length would need to have been measured.

Maurice
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jun 21, 2016 6:24 AM CST
Great point Maurice:
These were seedlings bought last spring in March and not labeled, They were planted one fan per spot. Daylilies on the left along the back fence.
Thumb of 2016-06-21/Seedfork/6a84ae
I suspect you are right on the original fan dying out and being the source of the dead dying fan. However, that still leaves the issue of the two budding scapes on the fan on the right.
I know because of the rust issue here, leaves have been pulled and broken off, so I suppose there is no way of explaining the growth pattern of these plants further. But I do find this very interesting and will keep a closer eye of the growth habit of the plant.


[Last edited by Seedfork - Jun 21, 2016 8:20 AM (+)]
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 21, 2016 7:30 AM CST
Seedfork said: However, that still leaves the issue of the two budding scapes on the fan on the right.
I know because of the rust issue here, leaves have been pulled and broken off, so I suppose there is no way of explaining the growth pattern of these plants further.

I expect that your supposition is correct; there does not appear to be any way to investigate this particular occurrence any further.

You can investigate daylily cultivar growth patterns whether the cultivar in question reblooms or does not rebloom in your location and growing conditions.
Daylilies can be continuous growers or discontinuous growers. Rebloom typically requires a continuous growth pattern, that is, it is easier to get rebloom with continuous growth than with discontinuous growth. Rebloom is possible with discontinuous growth, that depends on how long the growing season is and how long the growth rest period is.

Maurice
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Jun 21, 2016 8:24 AM CST
admmad said:

Daylilies can be continuous growers or discontinuous growers.



This may be a trait like the range of evergreen to dormant characteristics. In an area with growing conditions like mine where typical summer growing conditions turn to excessive heat, including nighttime temperatures, and very low humidity, most things tend toward being discontinuous growers whereas they might be continuous growers under more hospitable growing conditions. I'm seeing that occurring almost instantly now that the unusual wet and cool conditions have stopped. Humidity has remained high for the minute, but it won't be for long.

The foliage is taking a hit rapidly and the new growth is not keeping up with the die-back. I think I would see more rebloom if the conditions weren't so harsh. The break between growth and the rest period is what is most variable. Some take a short break and start growing again relatively quickly. It's like they adjust to the excessive heat. Others wait for the cool down as summer heads toward fall before they start growth again. A break of growth for several months. I don't think I've seen any that didn't take at least a short break in growth during the heat of summer. It also corresponds somewhat to the plants natural bloom time. If they are later blooming plants, they start the rest period later. But that doesn't mean they will be one that takes a short duration break except that it starts later.
Donald
Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
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Dennis616
Jun 22, 2016 6:43 PM CST
Thumb of 2016-06-23/Dennis616/3383e1
back

Thumb of 2016-06-23/Dennis616/d98ba8
front

This was planted as a single fan last spring. To my eye there is no visible sign of a second scape. Yet here it is apparently popping up two scapes. Both scapes are still growing and have not bloomed.

I received this plant as a triple fan last spring and one of the fans was separate from the others. I planted the linked two fans together, and planted the single fan separately 3 feet away. The double fan this spring has produced a clearly separate third fan, and interestingly one of the original two fans is displaying pretty much the same thing—two scapes apparently coming up from one fan at roughly the same time, although one has now finished blooming while the second is getting close to starting.

Does this fan really have two budding scapes from the same fan?


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