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Jun 22, 2016 6:52 PM CST
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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"To my eye there is no visible sign of a second "scape". Ah, I see we think alike! I used the word "scape" instead of fan also. It does look to me to be a single fan with two scapes.
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Jun 22, 2016 6:59 PM CST
Name: Maurice
Grey Highlands, Ontario (Zone 5a)
@Dennis616
Did the single fan produce a scape last year?
I have labelled the leaves on one of your photos.
Thumb of 2016-06-23/admmad/ba75ca
I would look at the length and width of the leaf labelled 1 and of the leaf labelled 2.

The leaf labelled 3 is a "left" leaf. I would check the fan for several weeks to see if a "right" leaf appears between leaf 3 and the scape.

I have seen this growth pattern with "Paper Butterfly" (PB) in some years. Here, in PB the "second scape" signals the end of growth and no new replacement fan (or new leaves) is produced for a noticeable period of time. In other years only one scape is produced on PB here.

This is what I had seen with PB back in early August of 2006
"Paper Butterfly' (PB) is also unusual in that in some years it produces what is termed 'instant rebloom' - two scapes appear in single fans before either scape begins bloom. When this happens one scape is always in the centre of the fan and the other (which appeared first) is between two leaves on the same side of the fan lower down. I have two clumps of PB. In clump 1 of six fans, one fan had two scapes and was resting (leaf growth). Of the remaining five fans four had a scape from below and were showing continuous growth and one had a central scape and was also resting. In clump 2 of nine fans, three had two scapes each. All three were resting. Of the remaining six fans, five had scapes from lower and were showing continuous growth and one had a central scape and was resting.
In PB, no fan with two scapes was growing leaves, all fans with one central scape also were not growing leaves. All fans with single scapes from below the original SAM were showing leaf growth."

Resting means not producing new leaves, discontinuous growth and basically apparently dormant at that time.

I should have continued my observations the next year (but did not) to see if fans (crowns) which had produced only one scape the previous year produced two scapes in the next year (and vice versa) - suggesting that when two scapes appeared on one fan, the first scape was actually a left-over rebloom scape from the previous year.
Maurice
Last edited by admmad Jun 22, 2016 7:12 PM Icon for preview
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Jun 23, 2016 4:11 PM CST
Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5b)
Daylilies
Seedfork said:"To my eye there is no visible sign of a second "scape". Ah, I see we think alike! I used the word "scape" instead of fan also. It does look to me to be a single fan with two scapes.


Hilarious! I can't believe I did it too! Hilarious!


@admmad My recollection is that the single fan did NOT produce a scape last year. This cultivar is "Giggle Pie Delight" and unfortunately I do not see any shared parentage with "Paper Butterfly" (would have been interesting if there was).
I measured the leaves. Both 1 and 2 are ~23" long and 1.25" wide. Leaf 3 is ~11" from the "V" of at the fan base. I will monitor leaf growth.

I just went out and looked at the double fan (now a triple) and discovered that BOTH of the original fans are now showing this growth pattern. Actually, one is showing the exact same where the second scape is in the middle of the fan:

Thumb of 2016-06-23/Dennis616/b1bf79

but it appears that the other has both scapes on the outside of the fan:

Thumb of 2016-06-23/Dennis616/1e4de0


I know that one if not both of those original fans did produce a scape last year.
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Jun 24, 2016 12:50 PM CST
Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
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admmad said:The normal cycle is small fan, fan grows larger becomes mature, fan produces a scape. New fan, fan grows larger becomes mature, fan produces a scape.


@admmad

Hi Maurice,

and what about seedlings from last year that make several new fans each, but no scapes?
Is that influenced by temperature, feed, soil, or... ?

All 3 seedlings were germinated last year, all 3 are Starman's Quest x Medicine Feather



Thumb of 2016-06-24/Mayo62/2f52f7


Thumb of 2016-06-24/Mayo62/1869cb


Thumb of 2016-06-24/Mayo62/4496ea


Mayo
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
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Jun 24, 2016 5:04 PM CST
Name: Maurice
Grey Highlands, Ontario (Zone 5a)
@Mayo62
Plants cannot move in the same manner that animals can and therefore have been selected (by natural selection) to be able to adapt as best they can to the conditions in which they find themselves. Plants tend to be described as being more phenotypically plastic or adaptable than animals. For example, in poor growing conditions a plant may delay flowering for many years until it becomes large enough to produce a decent crop of flowers OR it may flower at a very small size with few blooms.

Stout described daylilies as having either continuous growth or discontinuous growth. Continuous growth requires new buds or axillary meristems to be able to sprout and grow easily while for discontinuous growth the new buds (axillary meristems) become dormant for a time. For continuous growth the sprouting of new buds is not suppressed by the current growth. For discontinuous growth the sprouting of new buds is suppressed by the current fan growth.

In the case of a fan that does not produce any new fans until after it has flowered the idea is that the sprouting of the axillary buds is suppressed by the current fan. Sprouting of new buds can be suppressed by shoot apical meristems or leaves or both. The tendency for suppression by leaves is that it is stronger when the leaves are actively growing or when they are younger. That sort of suppression may have declined considerably and no longer be effective when the leaves start to age (eg yellow).

In the case of a fan that produces new fans without producing a scape the idea is that the sprouting of the axillary buds is not suppressed by the current fan. This can be basically genetic. For example, cultivars related to Hemerocallis minor (Stella, etc.) would probably have a stronger tendency to produce new fans without blooming. Or it can be environmental, for example, how one fertilizes a plant can change its growth patterns. Providing plants with high nitrogen can allow axillary buds to escape being suppressed by the current fan.

Now, we have another question. If we have a cultivar that becomes a small clump before it flowers then does the ability of the cultivar to flower depend on the size of specific fans or on the size of the clump or the number of fans in the clump or their combined leaf count, leaf area, etc.?

I have not looked at the flowering, growth or rebloom of Stella carefully enough to have a strong opinion of what is happening with clumping-type daylily bloomers. I have a clump of Stella that is growing without any special treatment (no extra water, no fertilizer, etc.) and there are three small clumps that have been given better treatment. I will have a look at their flowering/growth tomorrow.

In general, I expect that a cultivar's growth pattern is both genetic and environmental. Therefore it should be possible to change the growth pattern of most cultivars by changing the environment (usually fertilizer).
Maurice
Last edited by admmad Jun 25, 2016 7:16 AM Icon for preview
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Jun 24, 2016 5:22 PM CST
Name: Maurice
Grey Highlands, Ontario (Zone 5a)
Dennis616 said:My recollection is that the single fan did NOT produce a scape last year.

That is what I would have expected.
This cultivar is "Giggle Pie Delight" and unfortunately I do not see any shared parentage with "Paper Butterfly" (would have been interesting if there was).

I'm not sure how unusual the growth pattern is - I checked 'Paper Butterfly' because it is one of the few cultivars that tends to rebloom here without special treatment. However, 'Giggle Pie Delight' is a descendent of 'Paper Butterfly'.

(Alice's Day Off × Spacecoast Royal Ransom) × Queen of Can Do -> Giggle Pie Delight

(sdlg × All Fired Up) × Forbidden Fantasy -> Queen of Can Do

Eye Declare × (Wineberry Candy × Tet. Priscilla's Rainbow)) × Regal Braid -> All Fired Up

tet Siloam Virginia Henson × Paper Butterfly -> Wineberry Candy
Maurice
Last edited by admmad Jun 25, 2016 3:26 PM Icon for preview
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Jun 24, 2016 6:00 PM CST
Name: Maurice
Grey Highlands, Ontario (Zone 5a)
@Dennis616
I have added more labels to your photo

Thumb of 2016-06-24/admmad/e816b1
Looking at the scape associated with what I have labelled as "replacement fan" I would check the widths and lengths of the first leaf to the right of that scape and the first leaf to the left of it (those leaves should bracket the scape > scape > where > is a leaf.

Then for the second scape I would check the last leaf to the left of that scape and the first leaf to its right (again bracketing the scape).

From the way the fan is growing I suspect that it is showing continuous growth and it may not suppress the sprouting of axillary buds. There is an alternative idea and that is instead of scapes always being formed from the shoot apical meristem they may sometimes be formed from an axillary meristem. I don't think that occurs except as a possibility in rare occasions (more or less as a quirk of growth but not as a repeatable pattern). The reason I do not think that is a likely scenario is that daylilies are described as having sympodial growth/flowering and I do not expect that is easy to change at the biological level although it may be possible to make it appear as if it is changed.
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Jun 25, 2016 3:32 PM CST
Name: Maurice
Grey Highlands, Ontario (Zone 5a)
I had a look at several clumps of Stella de Oro. Most of the fans with scapes appear to show a replacement fan that has sprouted from a bud (that is it looks like a new fan). One fan had a terminal scape (in the centre of the fan) but did not have any new replacement fans on either side of the scape. That would be discontinuous growth.

There was no obvious difference between the growth patterns of the clumps that have had extra water and fertilizer versus the clump that has been neglected. There were more scapes on the clumps that are being better grown. These are the first scapes of this year so I will need to check the fans much later to see how rebloom affects the growth patterns. I may also have to divide some Stella and plant single fans of it to watch its growth pattern.
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Jun 25, 2016 3:57 PM CST
Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
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admmad said:@Mayo62
In general, I expect that a cultivar's growth pattern is both genetic and environmental. Therefore it should be possible to change the growth pattern of most cultivars by changing the environment (usually fertilizer).


Hi Maurice,

very interesting, thank you! Thumbs up

The cultivars in the same bed on the left, right and behind these seedling plants áre flowering / having scapes. So would that suggest that it isn't a fertilizer issue, but genetic.. ?

The cross is STARMAN'S QUEST x MEDICINE FEATHER.
Is one or both of these known as a clumping-type daylily bloomer?


Mayo
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
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Jun 25, 2016 4:28 PM CST
Name: Maurice
Grey Highlands, Ontario (Zone 5a)
Mayo62 said:
The cultivars in the same bed on the left, right and behind these seedling plants áre flowering / having scapes. So would that suggest that it isn't a fertilizer issue, but genetic.. ?

Yes, as long as they are the same age. You would need to also check the width of the fans (at soil level). Larger fans are more likely to flower than smaller fans (of the same cultivar). I do not know how strong a relationship there might be between fan size and flowering for different cultivars.

The cross is STARMAN'S QUEST x MEDICINE FEATHER.
Is one or both of these known as a clumping-type daylily bloomer?

I'm sorry but I do not grow either of those cultivars so I do not know.
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Jun 25, 2016 5:12 PM CST
Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
Bee Lover Organic Gardener Irises Hellebores Region: Europe Dragonflies
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admmad said:
Yes, as long as they are the same age. You would need to also check the width of the fans (at soil level). Larger fans are more likely to flower than smaller fans (of the same cultivar). I do not know how strong a relationship there might be between fan size and flowering for different cultivars.



Hi Maurice,

thank you again Thumbs up

The seedlings were germinated in September 2015, so they are still quite young.
The other DL's in the same border are bought cultivars, so I presume they are at least 2 -3 years old (?).

These seedlings are even smaller than a lot of other seedlings that were germinatied at the same time (but from other crosses), so I was surprised they made new fans at this stage Whistling

Thumb of 2016-06-25/Mayo62/5b668f

(photo made 6 weeks ago)


Mayo
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
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Jun 25, 2016 6:35 PM CST
Name: Maurice
Grey Highlands, Ontario (Zone 5a)
Mayo62 said:
The other DL's in the same border are bought cultivars, so I presume they are at least 2 -3 years old (?).

I would agree with that assumption. They would be significantly larger than seedlings.

These seedlings are even smaller than a lot of other seedlings that were germinatied at the same time (but from other crosses), so I was surprised they made new fans at this stage

If any of those other seedlings are in the same bed or nearby, and all the seedlings have been treated similarly then that would strengthen the idea that their growth pattern of dividing before flowering is more genetic than environmental.
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Apr 21, 2019 10:17 AM CST
Name: Barb
Quincy, FL (Zone 8b)
Practice senseless acts of beauty!
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What a thoughtful and educational thead! I learned a lot and am so appreciative. Can (and should) this thread go into a Teaching forum? A lot of us would be stuck like glue to it.
Thanks becky for starting this, kudos for Admmad for carefully dealing with the photos from Seedfork, Mayo and Dennis - who gave the food for this topic. Thank You! all.

Barb
“Because we all share this planet earth, we have to learn to live in harmony and peace with each other and with nature. This is not just a dream, but a necessity.”
― Dalai Lama
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Apr 21, 2019 10:23 AM CST
Name: Barb
Quincy, FL (Zone 8b)
Practice senseless acts of beauty!
Birds Irises Hummingbirder Keeps Horses Dragonflies Daylilies
Cat Lover Garden Photography Bulbs Butterflies Bookworm Deer
What made this thread so useful, was the interaction between those who knew exactly what they were talking about, those who thought they knew what was going on, and the rest of us who had no idea but soaked it all up making all of us more observant and knowledgeable.

I stand in awe of a spontaneous thread like this. I tip my hat to you.
“Because we all share this planet earth, we have to learn to live in harmony and peace with each other and with nature. This is not just a dream, but a necessity.”
― Dalai Lama

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