Plant ID forum: 8' sunflower type wildflower

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Name: Michele Roth
N.E. Indiana - Zone 5b
I'm always on my way out the door..
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Forum moderator Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Dog Lover Cottage Gardener
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chelle
Oct 14, 2011 5:58 AM CST
Indiana - zone 5
Growing by the roadside and down the slope into a depression. Probably sandy-clay soil there, and I'm guessing not excessively fertile. More of a waste type area.

Plants are very large - 6 to 8' tall.

Stalks are hairy, as are the leaf petioles. These plants bloom for just a couple of weeks in late September. I did get one of these plants to grow from collected seed.

Thumb of 2011-10-14/chelle/63e78a

Thumb of 2011-10-14/chelle/4ad3c8
Cottage Gardening

Newest Interest: Rock Gardens


Name: Michele Roth
N.E. Indiana - Zone 5b
I'm always on my way out the door..
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Forum moderator Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Dog Lover Cottage Gardener
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Keeps Horses Hummingbirder Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
Image
chelle
Oct 14, 2011 11:01 AM CST
I've finally ID'd this one as well...

http://uswildflowers.com/detail.php?SName=Verbesina%20altern...

Hurray! Big Grin

Thanks again Lee Anne for pointing me in the right direction(s) for native sunflower type plants!!

I've a few more to look for...... Whistling Hilarious! Hilarious! (I told myself that I'd wait 'til winter to research these......oops! Now I'm on a roll... Rolling on the floor laughing )
Cottage Gardening

Newest Interest: Rock Gardens


Name: Michele Roth
N.E. Indiana - Zone 5b
I'm always on my way out the door..
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Forum moderator Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Dog Lover Cottage Gardener
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Keeps Horses Hummingbirder Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
Image
chelle
Oct 20, 2011 4:04 AM CST
I'm opening this one again.

I've received knowledge from a reliable source that this is some sort of helianthus, not verbisina. So, it's back to searching.....
Cottage Gardening

Newest Interest: Rock Gardens


Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
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flaflwrgrl
Oct 20, 2011 5:51 AM CST
Chelle, check this site & see if you can't find it. Don't forget to check nearby states. It may have migrated.

http://uswildflowers.com/stateref.php?State=IN
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Michele Roth
N.E. Indiana - Zone 5b
I'm always on my way out the door..
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Forum moderator Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Dog Lover Cottage Gardener
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Keeps Horses Hummingbirder Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
Image
chelle
Oct 20, 2011 6:02 AM CST
Thanks for the link, Ann.

This one plant has been so elusive.....I even asked a DNR representative if he could help with its ID....he didn't have as much desire to wade through all the possibilities as we do! Hilarious!

I'm off to check it out. Smiling
Cottage Gardening

Newest Interest: Rock Gardens


Name: Michele Roth
N.E. Indiana - Zone 5b
I'm always on my way out the door..
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Forum moderator Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Dog Lover Cottage Gardener
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Keeps Horses Hummingbirder Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
Image
chelle
Oct 20, 2011 6:25 AM CST
The closest match listed there is Helianthus tuberosus. The photo of the lower stem section with leaves that they show looks very similar to the one I have, except that I've never seen reddish color on the stalks of my plant.

Cottage Gardening

Newest Interest: Rock Gardens


Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
Oct 20, 2011 6:30 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

My first thought was also Helianthus tuberosus.
Name: Michele Roth
N.E. Indiana - Zone 5b
I'm always on my way out the door..
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Forum moderator Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Dog Lover Cottage Gardener
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Keeps Horses Hummingbirder Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
Image
chelle
Oct 20, 2011 6:37 AM CST
I may just dig mine up and have a look at its underground parts. This is my least preferred choice, but trying to identify this plant has been much more difficult than I ever thought it would be. I originally thought that with its height it would be a snap.
Cottage Gardening

Newest Interest: Rock Gardens


Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
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flaflwrgrl
Oct 20, 2011 12:15 PM CST
YVW Chelle. Is it possible that the reddish color has to do with the particular area it's growing? Or with the soil ph? Or soil type?
I think what you may need is a "all things helianthus" ID & info. site. Hmmmm... wonder if there's a helianthus club?
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Michele Roth
N.E. Indiana - Zone 5b
I'm always on my way out the door..
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Forum moderator Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Dog Lover Cottage Gardener
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Keeps Horses Hummingbirder Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
Image
chelle
Oct 20, 2011 12:56 PM CST
flaflwrgrl said:YVW Chelle.

What does YVW stand for? Hmmm? (I have something in mind but I bet it's not right. Hilarious! )

flaflwrgrl said:
I think what you may need is a "all things helianthus" ID & info. site. Hmmmm... wonder if there's a helianthus club?
I do!! ....I have more of these types of plants to ID too! Rolling on the floor laughing

Cottage Gardening

Newest Interest: Rock Gardens


Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
Image
flaflwrgrl
Oct 20, 2011 6:24 PM CST
YVW --- You're very welcome. Just learned that one recently myself.

Google for sunflower clubs or helianthus clubs. See what you come up with. Or sunflower list or helianthus list or helianthus species list or helianthus variety list or...or...or...
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Michele Roth
N.E. Indiana - Zone 5b
I'm always on my way out the door..
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Forum moderator Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Dog Lover Cottage Gardener
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Keeps Horses Hummingbirder Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
Image
chelle
Oct 20, 2011 7:19 PM CST
Ah.

Thanks for the new term! Big Grin

I've tried the list one before - next I'll try clubs. Smiling

If the rain and wind ever stop I'll probably dig up the plant..... Whistling

Cottage Gardening

Newest Interest: Rock Gardens


Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
Image
flaflwrgrl
Oct 20, 2011 7:36 PM CST
I tip my hat to you.
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Forum moderator
Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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KentPfeiffer
Oct 21, 2011 11:03 AM CST

Moderator

You were right the first time, it's Wingstem. Not a Helianthus.
Name: Michele Roth
N.E. Indiana - Zone 5b
I'm always on my way out the door..
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Forum moderator Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Dog Lover Cottage Gardener
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Keeps Horses Hummingbirder Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
Image
chelle
Oct 21, 2011 2:25 PM CST
Thank you, Kent.

How did you come to this conclusion? I'm asking because I'm still confused.

Cottage Gardening

Newest Interest: Rock Gardens


Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Forum moderator
Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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KentPfeiffer
Oct 21, 2011 8:04 PM CST

Moderator

The "wings" extending down the stem below the attachment point of the leaves is fairly distinctive. More importantly, the leaves give the appearance of having winged petioles (technically, they don't but they look like they do). Finally, the leaves arranged in an alternate fashion (most Helianthus species have opposite leaves). Put all of that together, and there is little doubt that your plant is Wingstem.

FWIW, I can't see the flowers clearly to be certain but, from what I can see, they also look more like Wingstem flowers than Helianthus flowers.
Name: Michele Roth
N.E. Indiana - Zone 5b
I'm always on my way out the door..
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Forum moderator Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Dog Lover Cottage Gardener
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Keeps Horses Hummingbirder Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
Image
chelle
Oct 22, 2011 6:10 AM CST
So, it's verbesina. Great!

I'm sure that I have more images of this plant. I'll find another one of the flowers and get it in here.

Many thanks, Kent!
Cottage Gardening

Newest Interest: Rock Gardens


Name: Michele Roth
N.E. Indiana - Zone 5b
I'm always on my way out the door..
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Forum moderator Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Dog Lover Cottage Gardener
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Keeps Horses Hummingbirder Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
Image
chelle
Oct 22, 2011 7:02 AM CST
It's definitely not alternifolia. Look at the eighth image here http://www.namethatplant.net/plantdetail.shtml?plant=1602 . These stems appear to be much different than mine. In addition to that, the ray petals on mine are more pointy at the tips than the ones shown for alternifolia. They show as more rounded and sometimes with a center cleft at the end of the petal.
Cottage Gardening

Newest Interest: Rock Gardens


Name: Michele Roth
N.E. Indiana - Zone 5b
I'm always on my way out the door..
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Forum moderator Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Dog Lover Cottage Gardener
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Keeps Horses Hummingbirder Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
Image
chelle
Oct 22, 2011 11:37 AM CST
Additional info on this elusive sunflower.....

I dug one up.

We're looking for a much larger plant. The specimen shown here is 12 feet tall. Some were appreciably larger.

Plant's average size = 12 feet. Some individuals deeper in the gully appeared to be 15-18 feet tall.
Thumb of 2011-10-22/chelle/6933e1


Roots
Thumb of 2011-10-22/chelle/e31976


Seed. (Center, left.)
Thumb of 2011-10-22/chelle/1eccc7



At least one set of leaves on each flower branch is opposite. Middle section of plant stalk has some alternate leaves.
Thumb of 2011-10-22/chelle/fe0b9a Thumb of 2011-10-22/chelle/20e35e



Here, it appears that the (now missing, if there ever were any) basal leaves were opposite.



...and lastly, some flowers.

Cottage Gardening

Newest Interest: Rock Gardens


Name: Michele Roth
N.E. Indiana - Zone 5b
I'm always on my way out the door..
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Forum moderator Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Dog Lover Cottage Gardener
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Keeps Horses Hummingbirder Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
Image
chelle
Oct 24, 2011 8:19 AM CST
Dave was right on this one.

This is a form of helianthus tuberosus.

Here is one of the most comprehensive and informative links I've found. http://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/weedguide/singlerecord.asp?i...

This is an excerpt of the definitions section that I've adjusted with bold letters and underlining in some of the most pertinent areas.

The Ohio Perennial and Biennial Weed Guide says -

>>>>Plant Description: It is nearly impossible to distinguish Jerusalem artichoke from annual sunflowers based on above-ground growth. Jerusalem artichoke has a coarse, 5- to 10-foot tall stem, large leaves with a rough upper surface, and bright yellow sunflower-like flowers. However, Jerusalem artichoke can be easily distinguished from annual sunflowers by its below-ground growth that includes fleshy tubers resembling thin, knotty potatoes. Reproduction of Jerusalem artichoke is by seeds, rhizomes (horizontal underground stems), and tubers.

* Root system - The root system is fibrous with thin cord-like rhizomes (horizontal underground stems) that grow as long as 50 inches. Usually apparent at the tips of rhizomes are whitish to pinkish tubers that are irregular in size and shape and resemble a slender potato with knots.
* Seedlings & Shoots - The first leaves to emerge (cotyledons) have a united base in the shape of a short tube. Young leaves are elliptic, dull green, and covered with short stiff hairs.
* Stems - Jerusalem artichoke stems grow as tall as 12 feet, and are stout, rough, hairy, ridged. Stems can become woody over time. Branches vary from none to many.
* Leaves - Leaves are opposite (2 leaves per node) on the lower part of the stem, and alternate (1 leaf per node) near the top of the stem. Leaves are 4 to 10 inches long and nearly heart-shaped with a broad oval base and pointed tip. The thick leaves have 3 distinct main veins, coarsely-toothed margins, and attach to the stem by way of a [winged stalk (petiole). The upper leaf surface has coarse hairs while the lower surface has soft hairs.
* Flowers - Flower heads occur alone or in groups at the ends of main stems and axillary branches. Each flower head is 2 to 3 inches wide and made up of many small, yellow, tubular disk flowers in the center, surrounded by 10 to 20 yellow ray flowers (typically thought of as the petals).


Similar Species: Common sunflower (Helianthus annuus) is an annual that shares many above-ground characteristics with Jerusalem artichoke but below ground, it lacks rhizomes and tubers.



My additional note - The verbesinas have winged stalks with wings depending downward from leaf petioles. Helianthus tuberosus has winged leaf petioles only; the wings do not extend downward along the stalk;-)


Do we have it correctly identified now?

Smiling
Cottage Gardening

Newest Interest: Rock Gardens


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