Daylilies forum: Parentage Edge of Chaos

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Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
Region: Europe Cat Lover Daylilies Irises Dog Lover Hellebores
Rabbit Keeper Container Gardener Organic Gardener
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Mayo62
Aug 19, 2016 3:34 PM CST
ok, I'm confused... Blinking

can someone explain the parentage of Edge of Chaos to me?
I guéss Cerulean Star x Loch Ness Monster is the podparent and (Fairy Tale Pink x Donetha Marie) x Enchanter's Spell the pollenparent..?
( is there a parenthesis too many..? ( Hilarious! )))

NGA database: ((Cerulean Star x Loch Ness Monster) x ((Fairy Tale Pink x Donetha Marie) x Enchanter's Spell)

AHS database: (((Cerulean Star × Loch Ness Monster) × ((Fairy Tale Pink × Donetha Marie) × Enchanter's Spell))


Mayo
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Aug 19, 2016 4:17 PM CST
This is why I like an upper case 'X' between the pod and pollen parents. Then if there is a mistake in the number of parentheses, you can often figure it out. I think both versions are missing a parenthesis. In my mind they should be equal - ((( x ))) and not ((( x )). But I may be wrong, too. Never too late to be corrected about the errors of my ways. nodding Still, using the upper case form would tell you instantly which cultivars belong on the pod side and which belong on the pollen side.
Donald
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
Hybridizer Irises Butterflies Charter ATP Member Birds Cat Lover
Region: United States of America Region: Michigan Vegetable Grower Daylilies Hummingbirder Heucheras
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Hemlady
Aug 19, 2016 4:29 PM CST
Well I guess we all do it different. I would write it (Cerulean Star x Loch Ness Monster) X (Fairy Tale Pink x Donetha Marie) x Enchanter's Spell. You have 3 crosses here. I don't understand why you need 3 parenthesis.
Lighthouse Gardens
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Aug 19, 2016 4:38 PM CST
Hemlady said:Well I guess we all do it different. I would write it (Cerulean Star x Loch Ness Monster) X (Fairy Tale Pink x Donetha Marie) x Enchanter's Spell. You have 3 crosses here. I don't understand why you need 3 parenthesis.


Yes. Different happens a lot Rolling on the floor laughing . Your parentheses are balanced. The way you wrote it with the upper case X makes it clear that the parentage consists of a seedling for the pod parent and another seedling for the pollen parent. The only reason I would add an extra parenthesis on the pollen parent would be to denote it as one plant. It obvious, but visually it would just be easier for me. How did you know where that upper case 'X' belonged? In the intital post, I couldn't really tell if it went there or if it went before Enchanter's Spell and the pod parent was actually a cross between two seedlings.

Donald
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Aug 19, 2016 5:17 PM CST
This is how the parentage was listed according to Mahieu/Burris (as stated by a third party):

[(CERULEAN STAR x LOCH NESS MONSTER) X ((Fairy Tale Pink x Donetha Marie) x Enchanters Spell)]

The square brackets are not needed - so I strip them away
(CERULEAN STAR x LOCH NESS MONSTER) X ((Fairy Tale Pink x Donetha Marie) x Enchanters Spell)

This indicates the pod parent was a seedling Cerulean Star x Loch Ness Monster
The pollen parent was a seedling from (Fairy Tale PInk x Donetha Marie) x Enchanter's Spell

Now all this is a problem since I grow 'Enchanter's Spell' and I am fairly certain that it is pollen-sterile. So how could it have been successfully used as a pollen parent? That means that these hybridizer's might have listed the pollen parent first or the actual seedling was produced by a natural pollination that beat the hybridizer's pollen.

Maurice
Name: Ken
East S.F. Bay Area (Zone 9a)
Region: California
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CaliFlowers
Aug 19, 2016 5:40 PM CST
This is just conjecture, but here's what I think happened. The AHS version is the original, and someone, (presumably the hybridizer, but maybe the registrar) decided to wrap the entire parentage in one last set of parenthesis. This "Gift Wrapping" is something I see frequently in catalogs.

AHS:
(((Cerulean Star × Loch Ness Monster) × ((Fairy Tale Pink × Donetha Marie) × Enchanter's Spell))

Removing the end wrappers gives us the NGA version,

((Cerulean Star x Loch Ness Monster) x ((Fairy Tale Pink x Donetha Marie) x Enchanter's Spell)

which is unbalanced. My gut feeling is that there is one remnant, erroneous parenthesis on the left, which, if removed, leaves us with;

(Cerulean Star x Loch Ness Monster) x ((Fairy Tale Pink x Donetha Marie) x Enchanter's Spell)

which would mean that the SC x LNM seedling was the pod parent, and the (FTP x DM) x ES seedling was the pollen parent.

However, since it's a botched parentage to start with, it's "possible" that it's really this;

((Cerulean Star x Loch Ness Monster) x (Fairy Tale Pink x Donetha Marie)) x Enchanter's Spell

where Enchanter's Spell was the finishing pollen. Possible, except for; 1) it requires a lot more manipulation in order to make it so, (Occam's Razor) and 2) Edge of Chaos is a 7" UF, which is an improbable (not impossible) result if a 3" diploid was the direct pollen parent.

Regarding "X vs. x", It seems to me that it only works once. In other words, in order for it to be effectively used as I think it's intended—to indicate the "final" pollen parent, or "final" pairing—that would seem to mean that there's only room for one large X in a parentage "equation". The question is, what happens in subsequent generations? Even though the parentheses may seem to be difficult to sort out, I still believe that if done correctly, they're the best thing going with regard to plants with long, complex lineage.
Name: Judy
Louisiana (Zone 9b)
Region: Louisiana Region: Gulf Coast Hybridizer Seller of Garden Stuff
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judydu2
Aug 19, 2016 6:12 PM CST
Out of 27 registered plants using 'Enchanter's Spell' as a parent , only 2 are listed as having 'Enchanter's Spell' as pollen parent. One is the hybridizer of 'Edge of Chaos' (Mahieu-Burris, 2007) and the other is 'Enchanted Butterfly' (Salter-E.H., 1989).

Since many of the Salter registrations are questionable, I might assume that their information is not correct. I am not familiar with any Mahieu-Burris registrations, so I will not venture any opinion.

I don't grow 'Enchanter's Spell', so I have no knowledge of the appearance of the pollen. While it is true that hard, clumpy, very pale or white pollen is usually 'dead' pollen, I have read that on occasion, (very rare occasion), this sort of pollen will 'take'.

If the pollen looks normal but reacts as if it is sterile, it could have a ploidy issue rather than actually being sterile. Previously considered as sterile, some daylilies have been discovered as actually being 'off-ploidy', being neither tet nor dip but hexaploid, pentaploid, etc.) Jamie Gossard is working on this.
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Aug 19, 2016 9:35 PM CST
CaliFlowers said:
Regarding "X vs. x", It seems to me that it only works once.


Yes, only once in a cultivar lineage. If it's a seedling and was subsequently used as either a pod or pollen parent, then the upper case 'X' would only be used between it and the maternal/paternal parent. The 'X' would really be replaced by the addition of (...) at each end of the cross because the upper case is ONLY used between the maternalXpaternal plants being used. When I've used seedlings multiple times in crosses, I drop all upper case Xs except for the one dividing the maternal and paternal parents. I also count the parenthetical marks so they are even Smiling . If you use multiple generations of unregistered seedlings, it gets complicated. So a subsequent cross using the plant registered as Edge of Chaos would be ((Cerulean Star x Loch Ness Monster) x ((Fairy Tale Pink x Donetha Marie) x Enchanter's Spell)) X Whatchamacallit. Obviously this would only apply to unregistered seedlings or seedlings used prior to registering and introducing when they are used as a parent.


Donald
Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
Region: Europe Cat Lover Daylilies Irises Dog Lover Hellebores
Rabbit Keeper Container Gardener Organic Gardener
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Mayo62
Aug 20, 2016 4:54 AM CST
well, I'm glad that I'm not the only one that is confused...
(not as blond as I feared I was Rolling on the floor laughing )

I only noticed the unbalanced parentheses and I thought that there is 1 too many on the left, but adding 1 as Ken does, also gives balanced pairs.. Thumbs up
'Enchanter's Spell' possibly being pollen-sterile makes it all very complicated Confused

Oh well, I think I'll just make a special notation in PlantStep that the parentage is 'something with Cerulean Star, Loch Ness Monster, Fairy Tale Pink, Donetha Marie and Enchanter's Spell in it'.. Hilarious!


Thank You!
Mayo
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away

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