Daylilies forum: Pine Fines for Daylily Beds

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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Aug 21, 2016 7:01 AM CST
That is so odd that those of you up North can not find Pine Fines for sale. I don't understand that? I wonder if there is a reason?

These are some places that carry it outside of Florida:

North Carolina:
http://www.parkerbark.com/nursery_mixes.html

Ohio (and 1 location in Kentucky):
https://www.ohiomulch.com/products/premium-mini-pine-fines-2...

CT, MD, MA, VA, CA, NC, FL, Ontario, and British Columbia:
http://www.harvestpower.com/pine-fines/
http://www.harvestpower.com/locations/

VA:
http://remingtonmulch.com/shop/pine-bark-fines-bagged/

NC and SC:
http://www.seasidemulch.com/mulch/pine-bark-fines/

VA and MD:
http://www.lumberjake.com/services/delivery/

West VA:
http://lowe-products.com/product/pine-fines-mulch/

TN:
http://needhamsnursery.com/mulch-gravel-and-soil/232-pine-fi...

IL:
http://www.midwest-trading.com/product/3/8-Inch-S-Pine-Bark-...

NC:
http://wallacefarmproducts.com/index.php/our-products/soil-p...

I have noticed that it is sometimes listed as a "soil conditioner".
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
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Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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touchofsky
Aug 21, 2016 7:17 AM CST
It looks like what I use for mulch, but it is cedar, and it is sold as shredded mulch. I have never seen pine fines sold here.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Aug 21, 2016 7:24 AM CST
I haven't seen them either and the link for Ontario in the list above is not for pine fines.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Aug 21, 2016 7:26 AM CST
I would only use Pine, not any other hardwood chips. Pine breaks down into the soil very nicely and does indeed help amend the soil. It is supposed to be good for both sandy and clay soil. After about a year, the pines break down into what looks like rich and fluffy soil. I love this stuff and so do the earthworms.

I always have a bag of Pine Fines and Fafard Pro Potting mix on hand. If I run out, I feel compelled to get more right away because I am always doing containers and amending garden areas. The pine fines are great in containers too, mixed in with potting mix. It has become so popular here at one of the small nurseries, that from time to time they are sold out and I have to wait until they get another shipment in. So when I run out, I make a quick phone call, and then head down to this nursery. Oddly enough, the big box stores and other small nurseries locally don't sell it. They are sure losing a lot of business by not carrying it at their stores.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Aug 21, 2016 7:30 AM CST
Valerie and Sue - Hmmmm ..... I would be curious as to what they say if you called them. I wonder why they do not sell "Pine" fines in BC or Ontario?
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Aug 21, 2016 7:50 AM CST
This is just a guess but if they would be imported from outside Canada there may be phytosanitary restrictions/requirements that make it not worthwhile. Leftover Canadian pine from other uses may have higher value as something like wood pellets for home heating. There's perhaps less of a demand for that use in the south. I like shredded pine bark as a mulch but I haven't seen any for sale around here for a long time.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Aug 21, 2016 7:56 AM CST
Sue - Oh dear! I bet you are right about the restrictions to import it. Pine is abundant here in the south especially. I am sorry to hear that you have not seen any for sale as mulch or otherwise for some time. Sad
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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touchofsky
Aug 21, 2016 7:57 AM CST
I haven't seen shredded pine, either for a very long time. You are right, Sooby, there must be another use for it now. I use pine needles for my garden paths, since I have so much of it being surrounded by pine!
Name: Ginny G
Iowa (Zone 5a)
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Legalily
Aug 21, 2016 10:12 AM CST
I haven't seen pine fines in Iowa but I'm certainly going to check! Solid clay at my house Thumbs down Thumbs down Thumbs down
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South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
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Polymerous
Aug 21, 2016 3:58 PM CST
Here in CA (our part of it, anyway) redwood is what is used for mulching (there are various sizes and styles (bark chips of various sizes versus shredded "gorilla hair" (ugh), which may also also (gack) be dyed), and for soil conditioning redwood compost is often used. I have used redwood chips for mulch in my kitchen garden for forever, and they do break down and need replenishing. (The smaller chips, obviously, break down quicker, but I think give better soil coverage and look nicer.)

So I have no fear of, or problems with, using redwood chips with abandon in my soil or in my pots. The only problem is that if you are going to use a lot of it, then it is cheaper to buy it by the truckload, which is something (lacking a truck) that I myself can't do. While I yearly buy a few bags (of the smallest size I can get) for the kitchen garden, for ornamental mulching or for mixing into the seedling bed or potting soil, I get my garden helpers to bring in a truckload of the fine/small chips. (Having worked for a landscape contractor, they know of sources which I do not.) Hence, the perennial mulch pile near a gate on one side of our property. We keep chipping away at it, using it in various spots, and replenish it as needed (generally once a year, in the spring).
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Name: Signet
South Western Ontario , Canada (Zone 6a)
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signet
Aug 21, 2016 4:35 PM CST
It makes me wonder why pine fines would be used at all. Anything I have read says that using wood mulch such as pine fines removes nitrogen from the soil in order to break down for at least the first year and even into the second year. This means the plants planted there would be lacking in nitrogen an essential component for optimum growth

Taken from the net ...... "Nitrogen is a component of chlorophyll and therefore essential for photosynthesis. It is also the basic element of plant and animal proteins, including the genetic material DNA and RNA, and is important in periods of rapid growth. Plants use nitrogen by absorbing either nitrate or ammonium ions through the roots.

Also taken from the net "The problem arises during the decomposition phase. At that time, so much nitrogen may be tied up in the bodies of microorganisms that plants are unable to obtain all they need to be healthy. This leads to pale leaves and stunted growth, symptoms of nitrogen deficiency."


Wouldnt think it would be a good practice.

http://www.asnailspacedaylilies.com

Spent most of my time in the garden the rest of it I've wasted
[Last edited by signet - Aug 21, 2016 4:37 PM (+)]
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Name: Arlene
Ponce Inlet, FL (Zone 9a)
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florange
Aug 21, 2016 4:40 PM CST
Signet, I'm using a soil-less mix in my boxes. So, robbing nitrogen isn't a problem because I fertilize heavily, but not as heavily as the professional growers.


Becky, here is some information to throw into the conversation.

When I was really active in the daylily community (about 8 yr ago) the growers were all using a mix of pine fines and Florida peat. They got it in huge deliveries and those sources were not available to me, a consumer. About 4 yr ago I found a nursery not too far away that sold bags of 50% composted pinebark, Florida peat and Canadian Peat. Now that mix also contains cypress sawdust. Because I have no other way to get a mix with FL peat, I'm using this one. It sells in 1 cu ft bags for $5--very reasonable by my standards and easy to handle. Usually I combine it with a 3 cu ft bag of Faford 3B mix at the rate of 1 bag of 3B and 2-2 1/2 bags of the FL peat mix. My daylilies love this stuff!! Although bloom season was disappointing, now the plants are beautiful and lush.

I am a 67 yr old 5'2" woman who wants to be able to continue gardening. To that cause, the 1 cu ft bags work. I also have a WORX manual machine that is a cross between a hand cart and a wheelbarrow. It will get used this fall!!!!!!

I have been told that Walmart carries pine fines in FL. Don't look there because of reports that the local store has bags infested with ants. Don't need that!!!
[Last edited by florange - Aug 21, 2016 4:42 PM (+)]
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Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Aug 21, 2016 4:52 PM CST
Uncomposted wood mulch used as mulch doesn't typically cause nitrogen deficiency except maybe to a small extent at the soil-mulch interface. That's why very small seedlings with shallow roots may have some problem whereas larger established plants would not because their roots are below the zone of decomposition. On the other hand if you incorporate the wood product into the soil rather than using it as mulch then there is a risk of nitrogen deficiency but people get around this by fertilizing with nitrogen to compensate. It's only going to cause a deficiency if you don't provide enough nitrogen to make up for the temporary deficit.
Name: Gerry Donahue
Pleasant Lake, IN (Zone 5b)
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profesora
Aug 21, 2016 5:31 PM CST
In the fall I use my grass catcher/mulcher to gather leaves for my compost pile, and I go to a neighbors yard and do the same to collect pine needles. This summer a hosta buddy said that he needs to get rid of lots of pine needles, and my son and I went to my buddy's house and we brought home a truck load. Next month we plant to make several trips because I want to use it with daylilies.
[Last edited by profesora - Aug 21, 2016 5:32 PM (+)]
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Name: Ginny G
Iowa (Zone 5a)
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Legalily
Aug 21, 2016 6:09 PM CST
Gerry will you grind then somehow or leave the needles whole?
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Name: Arlene
Ponce Inlet, FL (Zone 9a)
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florange
Aug 21, 2016 6:12 PM CST
Oh, in my oak grove in the back, I never ever remove leaves. In fact, I add them when friends who live in the north part of Daytona offer bags of leaves and pine straw. Bring it on, baby, bring it on. I take all offers!
Name: Natalie
North Central Idaho (Zone 7a)
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Natalie
Aug 21, 2016 6:18 PM CST
No pine fines for me in Idaho. Sad Well, I take that back. The little nursery in town said that they carry it, but they never have it. They said it was $60 a yard, because they have to haul it in from Montana. No thanks, just because of the price! The other two places here that sell bulk mulch (not fines) are out of the question. One is cedar mulch for about $45 a yard, and the other is dyed for about $30 a yard. I've heard that there is a third place, but I was told that it was $40 and up a yard, so I won't be checking to see what they have. I miss the truck load for mulch I used to get in Utah for $20, and I could pick the size!
Natalie
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Aug 21, 2016 6:35 PM CST
Arlene - That sounds like a very good mix! Thumbs up

I use pine fines and some dirt mixed together with slow-release fertilizer and alfalfa and some lime (because the pine fines are acidic). And I've been know to sprinkle just a little worm compost in for good measure. All I know is that it works for me. Better than anything else I have used. I do mix Fafard in with pine fines if I am growing anything in a container. Digging up anything planted in pine fines is so easy compared to digging in the ground in my yard. The daylilies have done well in that mix. I do have another bed with more dirt and less pine fines and that bed of plants seem to struggle. I imagine the dirt compacts too much when watering. So I have learned by trial and error that a bed of "mostly" pine fines is the way to go for me here in Florida.

I never thought that redwood would make a good mulch/soil amendment, but I suppose if it was ground up to a fine mix, it would indeed be a good wood to use.

I actually think of pine fines as decomposing natural wood. Most lush forests have layers of decomposing wood that the plants are growing in. Using pine fines just speeds up the process because being ground up, it decomposes much quicker. And the earthworms love it, too! Which is another good thing to have in a garden!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Natalie
North Central Idaho (Zone 7a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Native Plants and Wildflowers
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Natalie
Aug 21, 2016 6:53 PM CST
My flower beds at our house in Utah are amazing, because of the mulch I covered them with. I usually did a truck load in early spring, and another in the fall. It would break down over summer, and then again in winter, and the soil is fantastic. Here, it's rock hard and I can barely get a shovel in it. To me, it's very obvious the difference that it makes. Now I just add bagged mulch around the plants, and I always use alfalfa pellets, but it's a long way off from being great. The problem is finding bagged mulch here without dye. It's so frustrating! I just wish I could find some pine fines because I've heard such good things about it. I might even try some at $60 a yard, if the nursery in town would actually get a truck load in. If nothing else, I'd use it for the few pots that I have, and then maybe around the daylilies, since that is too expensive for me to be covering the entire garden with it.
Natalie
Name: Signet
South Western Ontario , Canada (Zone 6a)
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signet
Aug 21, 2016 7:41 PM CST
Sooby , if you have to buy nitrogen to add to the soil to replace the nitrogen removed by the decomposing wood chips/fines ......what is the point ? I could see having the fines decomposing in a compost heap until ready to use but still makes no sense to me to have to spend money on the fines and then money on the nitrogen needed to add in to replace the nitrogen used by the decomposing fines . Why not just use compost ?
http://www.asnailspacedaylilies.com

Spent most of my time in the garden the rest of it I've wasted

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