Oh woah... I didn't know anything of that about ploidy - but I'm not sure I understand what Lorn is saying!

Lorn, do you mean that any given bulb of a '4n' cultivar will be composed of only a certain percentage of 4n cells whilst the rest of the plant's cells may be of one or more different ploidies? (spelling - haha! ) Or that a percentage of bulbs of a purportedly 4n cultivar aren't 4n?

How do Leslie Woodriff and LeVern Friemann fare over time in the garden? I haven't grown tetraploids long enough to notice any loss of vigour.

Fantastic pics and info, William. Love the inflorescence on 'Vezuvs'... would love to breed with that!

Della: Any given 4n bulb tested per cultivar. So, if I were to pull scales from my Anastasia and test it, it should run close to: 17% 2n, 14% 3n, 60% 4n and 9% other, as would yours or Tracey's or anyone else's.

If you do stomata counts with a microscope you can see the different sizes. EDIT ADDED: The 4n are much larger, about double in size. And like I say, there are exceptions with some very hardy, stable, old time 4n's out there, but not many when compared to the overall total developed over the years. 3n on the other hand, can be very stable and long lived.

Thanks Lorn, that makes sense. Also backs up what I'd read and been told: the reason to create 4n lilies is to be able to breed 3n!

I knew I read this somewhere before. It was in the 1990 Nals yearbook. An article written by Gerard J. J. Geenen.





The second picture is showing where the lily registered. 2c and 4c showing ploidy. And as well as know, technology then, is way outdated compared to what we have now.

Lorn, I know somewhere I have seen a table showing something similar to the spreadsheet you are sharing in your picture. But I can not place where I saw it. If it was something on line or something someone posted on here. Going to drive me crazy now.

Sorry. I just had an a-ha moment as something just clicked in my head when I read this

Dave, I posted something similar about 4n with 'typed in' results a couple years or so ago. My intention was to refresh everybody that there is no such thing as a perfect 4n. And, there can be greater variation and inconsistency from one high speed clone batch to another of the same cultivar, called clonal drift. These inconsistencies and variations in growth rate and color, no matter how slight, make it incompatible with modern day growing methods in the Netherlands when a 5 million bulb production run is programed to grow and bloom in 71 days and 6 hours. Not weeks or days to bloom anymore; everything is to the clock. and it better be right. The plants must all be exactly the same height and have the same bud count and ready to be shipped and bloom on a pre-designated day . So, the next time you walk in a big box garden center and look across the tables of lilies you'll see the results of this precision growing and blooming. Another reason the billion dollar forcing and cut flower industry shy away from 4n is, by nature, they are big and bulky and not only that they don't ship well, it's not economical.

Glad to hear you find the old yearbooks interesting. I go digging back into mine every now and then. My problem is that I can never remember the year of the info I'm looking for. Before you buy anymore, let me know which ones you need. I have some extras.

With other plants I know tetraploid conversion often only happens to the treated area (treating seeds often results in poor roots and death straight after germination) so lilums with their big bulb (which is unlikely to have been fully converted) and rests/grow back cycle isn't surprising to me that the ploidy is inconsistent within the plant since I don't think many generations of 4n have been done (ie 4n to 4n and then grow those seed) which may be part of the issue if all the tetraploid liliums around are clones of converted plants rather than the result of breeding.....but that's just an assumption. I know there's always a window where the conversion is happening where everything is shakey for awhile for all types of plants before it establishes well and fertility issues become far less of an issue.

I never said the ploidity within a given plant is different or varies from one part to another. That should be uniform, whatever the count is for that particular plant. What does vary are the counts, bulb to bulb. Imagine if you will, that I run a batch of 100 2n scales (typical because yield is so low) with dilute Oryzalin treatment and then incubate them for 8 weeks. Assuming I get 2 bulblets per scale, I would have 200 bulblets to look at. Of those 200, about 175 would look like completely normal 2n, like nothing ever happened. Of the remaining 25 or so, 5 or 6 will really stand out like bulblets on steroids---much, much larger. Then the remaing 20 or so will vary from looking fairly decent to completely twisted out of shape. Now if we plant out the good looking 5 or 6 and grow them to maturity, we would begin to see that each one has a different appearance and personality. An analysis of each would show different counts for each and there in lies the difference. Now if we get into crossing these siblings we run he risk of recessives and incest resulting in 'top budding', things like that, that we don't want. Oh, I almost forgot. About those 175 that looked like nothing ever happened. It did, they just don't look like it. Most all would be a mix of 2n, and 3n with very little 4n. They're called mixiploids and I've been told they usually are short lived or some may revert back to 2n (so I've been told, anyway).

The mixiploids also known as "chimera"? I'm guessing here that these issues with tetra and tri ploid Lilies are the reason you mostly work with diploids Lorn?

Mixiploids are not chimeras and 4n takes a little too long to develop to bloom stage for me. It's an extra step and a years time lost with the converting when I could be moving on to my next crosses. I don't have the patience, I guess. EDIT ADDED: Keep in mind also, that my crosses are non complex meaning that they are never more than a handful of crosses away from the origin species which are 2n, so it's a little bit by default that I work with 2n.

Guntis Grants has posted a lot of new and interesting images of his extensive lily farm and hybridizing work on his webpage. There are images of his fields, greenhouse, test tube grown crosses and so on. Lily heaven, but a lot of work!: http://www.daugmaleslilijas.lv...

Finally finished the review of 2017 years lily images. Didn't take many as the later the season got, the more damage from Botrytis I got and the less inclined to take pictures I got. It was a very wet summer. Also some frost damage in spring and I didn't spray with baking soda either. I was uncertain if it was truly useful to spray with baking soda or not, but the results from last year seems to imply that I should start spraying again. Then I had very heavy rain breaking many OT lilies to the ground as they started to bloom and many very also devastated by the Botrytis. The front yard was however considerably better, so al was not lost.

Anyway, enough complaining, these newly planted bulbs were in a new bed in full sun, so bloomed early and was looking good enough to photograph.

Bronzas Laikmets is a rather short lily, but has a profusion of blooms. Simply excellent :



Dundari Dandari:



Dzintarjūra:



Jukataka:


Burvju Zizlis:

The inflorescence is a little bit too compact to suit the graceful side facing flower, but this Tango lily demands attention for the great color contrast.


Ķiršu Liķieris:



Taurenītis (translates to Butterfly)

A little bit short growing so couldn't get a really good isolation from the background in the pics, but for me this is a very pretty double one, with its petite flowers. Far from the usual double monstrosities, but of course this wont be for everyone. Really stands out among other lilies.


Hameleonu Rotaļa:

Very unusual color compo.


Kāzu Rota:

So sweet! Should be very tall with time, but still a young bulb.


Kuršu Guns:



Gulbju Pārnākšana:

Big pyramidal inflorescence already in its first year!

The pink large blooming lily is Teicamniece and in the bottom left we have Jukataka again.


There are some commercial cultivars among them, but here are some wider views of them blooming in the "kitchen garden".

Progress report of cultivars planted in 2015:
2016 blooms followed by 2017:

'Masa Lapsa' is a short lily, so far producing rather small bulbs (I moved it in 2016) so the inflorescence is pretty good for a lily of this size.


'Trejdeksnis' inflorescence is extremely long an airy.


I think these have developed very well. Needless to say they are keepers.

What a wonderful bud count too.

Indeed, a wonderful inflorescence. I can never get enough of the Guntis Grants lilies. Many are unique to what we usually see.

I have been feeling privileged from the start, having the opportunity to grow Guntis Grants lilies.
Yes, I have bought the bulbs and payed for them, yet they feel like a gift to grow.

Incredible photography, too!

Jukataka

Pleased to hear that you enjoyed the photos, Rick. Thank you.

Ursula, 'Jukataka' is such a great warm color with nice spots and I enjoyed it a lot. I hope it will turn out to be a good garden plant as I want to have a big clump of it.

Lovely to see these lilies, thanks for posting.

Thank you for the acorn, Della and I'm happy that you enjoyed seeing some of Guntis Grants lilies.