Plant ID forum: A Crinum of some sort?

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Name: Myriam
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bonitin
Oct 22, 2011 3:48 PM CST
I met this interesting beauty in an open marshy field in a rainforest area close to the sea in Paraty, Brazil.
I think this will be a challenge for getting an ID! Rolling my eyes. I took the photos in a hurry, which is a pity really..

Myriam
Thumb of 2011-10-22/bonitin/2c6128 Thumb of 2011-10-22/bonitin/b47cc5
Name: Suzanne/Sue
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Calif_Sue
Oct 22, 2011 7:10 PM CST

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Looks like it may possibly be a Hymenocallis harrisiana, aka Peruvian Daffodil, Spider Lily.
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Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Oct 22, 2011 7:22 PM CST

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I was thinking Hymenocallis but it is missing that "inner flower" section. (The part of the bloom that looks just like a four o'clock (Miribilis jalapa).
[Last edited by dave - Oct 22, 2011 2:50 PM (+)]
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Name: Suzanne/Sue
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Calif_Sue
Oct 22, 2011 7:27 PM CST

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Yeah, that's what I thought too, it doesn't quite look right but the a few of the Hymenocallis harrisiana images I saw didn't show a large center like some of the others have, that's why I said 'possibly' but looking at more photos, it doesn't look the same.
OK, back to square one.
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Name: Zuzu
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zuzu
Oct 22, 2011 7:29 PM CST

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No, I remember seeing a Crinum that looked like that, probably on the Buried Treasures site. I'll hunt for it.
Name: Zuzu
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zuzu
Oct 22, 2011 7:31 PM CST

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Maybe Crinum asiaticum?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=kjrmc&cp=5&gs_id=k...
Name: Suzanne/Sue
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Calif_Sue
Oct 22, 2011 7:35 PM CST

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It does indeed look like a Crinum species, not sure which one.
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Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
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Calif_Sue
Oct 22, 2011 7:37 PM CST

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Ha, I was just coming back to post the same as Zuzu as I was scrolling through the various species and their origin on this site.

http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/CrinumSp...
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Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Oct 22, 2011 7:51 PM CST

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I think you're right on with Crinum.

Myriam, I don't suppose you'd have photos of the foliage or entire plant?
Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
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Horntoad
Oct 22, 2011 8:27 PM CST
Crinum americanum
http://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=CRAM2
wildflowersoftexas.com
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Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Region: California Plant Database Moderator Roses Irises Clematis Garden Photography
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Calif_Sue
Oct 22, 2011 9:45 PM CST

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Except that's native to the US. This one was photographed in "open marshy field in a rainforest area close to the sea in Paraty, Brazil."
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Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
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Horntoad
Oct 22, 2011 10:17 PM CST
Apparently C. americanum is variable and there is a bit of debate about South and Central American forms. Some consider them variation other say they are seperate species.

Crinum erubescens
http://marcellescrinums.com/html/crinum-species/crinum-erube...
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[Last edited by Horntoad - Oct 22, 2011 6:00 PM (+)]
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Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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Horntoad
Oct 22, 2011 10:26 PM CST
This page list Crinum x submersum Herbert as a natural hybrid of C. scarbrum and C. americanum. For it to be a natural hybrid in Brazil, I would think both species would have to exist in Brazil.

The text says C. americium but I believe this is a typo.

Crinum x submersum Herbert is a natural hybrid found in Brazil. It is an obvious cross of C. scarbrum and C. americium, and is quite sterile. Numerous duplicate crosses, man-made or hummingbird pollinated, have appeared since Herbert's time. The variants amongst both C. americanum and C. scabrum result in significant diversity as shown in Figures 25 and 26 below. Usually the petals are intermediate in form, indicating some intermixing of genes.

http://www.crinum.org/crinpics/ch_5.html
wildflowersoftexas.com
texasnatureonline.com


Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
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bonitin
Oct 23, 2011 4:21 AM CST
You have been all working so hard! Thanks for all the efforts to ID this tough one! Smiling

I’m still sore I didn’t take more and better pictures of the plant, but was in a hurry to get back ‘home’ before the dark was setting in after a long walk..next day I went back but to my horror the whole field was mowed short, as that area is property of a spiritual community and the responsibles fear (understandably) the many snakes that forage in it as it was in the proximity of their temple..

The flowers do have a remarkable likeness to some of the Crinum asiatum flowers, but the foliage doesn’t look right..Crinum amoenum looks very close too with these flower petals drooping, but then Crinum americanum in fig.20 in Jay’s link also has them drooping, the foliage matches better too, only I cannot see the colour of the pistals, the ones I found has purple pistal ‘stems’..
There were really masses of them but densely interwoven with Cyperus grasses and other bog vegetation, impossible to get a picture of the whole plant plus not easy to stand firm in boggy soil. Rolling my eyes. It also looked that they were over their blooming peak, not many flowers were left..
The leaves were not very broad, about 3-5cm, the whole plant varying between 30-60 cm tall, maybe they didn’t get opportunity to develop to their full potential being mowed once in a while..

That next day when they were all mowed, the temptation was too big, *Blush* Big Grin I up rooted a few of the smaller ones, very difficult as the bulbeous roots were deeply sunk in the sucking mud, but I managed, have send a couple to my friend in England and two to myself from which I still have one left, as I had no experience with crinums one of them rotted as I had kept it too wet in winter inside. With some luck the one left might bloom next year..

I took pics of the foliage of the one I have in my attic room to overwinter, Dave..
Thumb of 2011-10-23/bonitin/7544ad Thumb of 2011-10-23/bonitin/1a4ab7
I also had a picture of the 'bulb' as it arrived home, but cannot find it in my folders, but had send it to my English friend in a c-mail..
Thumb of 2011-10-23/bonitin/e164ab
Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Tip Photographer Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Hibiscus
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Horntoad
Oct 23, 2011 9:33 AM CST
I seriously doubt you will be able to get a positive ID, since even botanist have such a difficult time agreeing on this genus. Here is an article ( very long) on the confused history of Crinums. My guess is that it is going to be one of the Crinum americanus "series", but would be nearly impossible to exactly which one.
About two thirds down the article is a section about Crinum americanus.

http://www.crinum.org/review.html
wildflowersoftexas.com
texasnatureonline.com


Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
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bonitin
Oct 23, 2011 10:41 AM CST
I understand the impossibility to get a certain ID, Jay, but we at least got a bit closer with probably a Crinum americanus "series". Thanks a lot, it is very appreciated! Smiling
Name: Suzanne/Sue
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Calif_Sue
Oct 23, 2011 12:06 PM CST

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A great learning experience! Thanks for all the extra info Jay!
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Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Nov 6, 2011 6:22 PM CST
There's two Crinum species listed for Brazil, C. americanum and C. scabrum.

This looks like Crinum americanum... there is apparently different forms but all are still C. americanum.

http://marcellescrinums.com/html/crinum-species/crinum-ameri...

A photo on Mauro Peixoto's site..

http://www.brazilplants.com/amaryllidaceae/crinum-americanum...

An interesting article on them in Brazil.. it seems they are more competitive when they have a higher dose of salt.

http://www.jpnr.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Spatial-di...

Mine are all doing well Myriam! Big Grin
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
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bonitin
Nov 7, 2011 4:49 AM CST
Thank you Janet! Mauro Peixoto's picture and the other from the first link are a perfect match in every sense!
Very interesting info that it seems to be more competitive when having a higher dose of salt!
The field was actually very close by the sea, I had to pass by it to get there!!
I'm glad I can give it a definite name now, it is Crinum americanum!

I'm also pleased all of yours are doing well! Big Grin

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