Lilies forum: Interdivisional polyploid crossing question

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Protoavis
Oct 10, 2016 12:44 AM CST
Possibly a silly question but.

I know (for example) a diploid oriental crossed with a diploid Asiatic would require embryo rescue (or more...I know the cross exists but not being common possibly means the embryo rescue isn't as successful?)

But would the same hold true for tetraploid oriental (although not sure they exist? Can't find any named cultivars) cross tetraploid Asiatic?

From what I've read the need for embryo rescue is related to endosperm not matching up but in the case of a tetraploid cross that doesn't seem like it'd be an issue?

I realise there's a bunch of fertility issues with tetraploid not producing as much viable seed compared with diploid but that's not really what I'm trying to figure out.

Anyone able to shed any light on that, haven't been able to find anything specific on the topic.

Thank you.
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
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dellac
Oct 10, 2016 4:42 AM CST
Good question. Looking forward to reading some answers!

And Welcome! to the forum.
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Seed Starter
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Australis
Oct 10, 2016 5:26 AM CST
I, too, am interested in this discussion and would like to know if such interdivisional crosses are easier at the 4N level. I am not aware of any tetraploid OA hybrids, but there are some tetraploid LOs, LTs, LAs and OTs I know of:

Chiara VIII LO
Easter Morn VIII LT
El Condor VIII LO
Faith VIII LA
Longicanda VIII LA
Longida VIII LA
Longiklara VIII LA
ML's Ortega VIII OT
Northern Dazzle VIII OT
Pink Champers VIII OOT
Pink Heaven VIII LO
Regal Star VIII OT
Santa Rosa VIII LO
Tanita VIII LO
Tetra Black Beauty VIII OT
Vendella VIII LO

I've been compiling a list of known ploidies here (I also list the source of my information so you can double-check it if you'd like):

Excel: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RBoUHFt8jkZM0XFvfip2...
PDF: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RBoUHFt8jkZM0XFvfip2...

Protoavis
Oct 10, 2016 5:53 AM CST
Australis said:I, too, am interested in this discussion and would like to know if such interdivisional crosses are easier at the 4N level. I am not aware of any tetraploid OA hybrids....


Nor am I, but then I'm barely aware of OA hybrids existing given they aren't common. Its why I used it as the example, given how different they are with germination seems like a good example to see if anyone knows if the germination at tetraploid level is possible at the 4N.

Largely just curious given other polyploid crossings in other plants becoming more viable to achieve fertility and germination in their wider crosses...just seems odd that it hasn't been explored with liliums, someone surely knows something.


Name: Tracey
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
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magnolialover
Oct 10, 2016 10:13 AM CST

Moderator

I have heard that there may be some ploidy studies done in the near future. Hopefully the findings will be reported in the NALS bulletin, if there are concrete findings.

Lilies are not where the money is which is why there has not been much research done in this area. Grants that cover a wide range of study areas will be the best bet for it. Here's to hoping more is discovered with tangible concrete evidence based findings.
Tracey

Protoavis
Oct 15, 2016 9:13 PM CST
So no one really knows yay!

On a tangent (ignoring ploidy), as I can't find anything conclusive online. Are any interdivisional hybrids possible without embryo rescue/culture? I realise there's probably always exceptions but looking for more general info. I would have thought maybe AA/asiapets would but given how they are....almost unheard of it seems possibly not. OT seems possible from some posts in the seedling thread?

Or do all interdivisionals currently require ER/C?

Anyone know with AA/Asiapets, OT, LA, OA, LO and any other cross I'm likely missing. Thank you.
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Seed Starter
Annuals Container Gardener Garden Photography
Australis
Oct 16, 2016 12:35 AM CST
A while back I came across a paper that had a list of crosses that were known to work without embryo rescue and posted it here: http://garden.org/thread/view_post/1148853/

So certainly some intersectional hybrids are possible without needing special techniques (the standout in that list is L. speciosum X L. nepalense). In the majority of cases, though, my guess would be probably not.

Edited to correct interdivisional vs intersectional (thanks Leftwood).
[Last edited by Australis - Oct 16, 2016 7:05 PM (+)]
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Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
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Leftwood
Oct 16, 2016 5:11 PM CST
Splitting hairs here for some people, but "Iinterdivisional" may or may not be the same as "intersectional", yet another irreconcilable difference between horticulture and botany. But I might point out that the information in the paper thatJoshua notes in the previous post is titled intrasectional, not intersectional. Intrasectional hybrids are crosses within a section (of lilies in this case); intersectional hybrids are crosses between sections, and would be more akin to interdivisional. Still, I would consider L. speciosum x L. nepalenses to be a much wider cross than a normal intrasectional hybrid.

Protoavis
Oct 16, 2016 6:44 PM CST
I noticed that also (intra vs inter) but figure it may be a case that inter may not be possible without extra steps. I'd assume tetraploid would overcome that to some extent as it has in many many other plants, just can't find the info I'm looking for.

But yes interdivisional and intersectional are likely being used to mean the same thing. I'm just using division because everything I'm reading refers to the 8 (9?) divisions.

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