This flipping the bag thing has gone a little of course. The usual procedure is to place the prepared scales flat in layers in bags, etc. and cover with media, both sides. Then place the bags flat in a warm location UNDISTURBED to incubate for 8 to 10 weeks, checking only for excess moisture the first 24 and 48 hours and to open the bag to adjust moisture if necessary. And, for all practical purposes, that's all the average backyard gardener needs to know or do.

The only other exception (s) would be when doing a full bulb scaling and you have many scales in double layers in a gallon bag or if you have 6 or 8 very large scales in a quart size bag. In both of these cases, you'd have by necessity a great deal more media to cover them properly. And when working with a pretty full bag of media, the moisture tends to become, overtime, more concentrated (but not condensed) in the top half than the bottom half. This is visually evident when using light colored natural sphagnum moss (as shown in Rick's photos above). It turns lighter in color as it dries out. So, when I check these 'heavy' bags with a full load of scales and media occasionally and I see there is a color difference (lighter on the bottom than on top), then I'll flip them. Using the saved chipboard as an assist.

It was by this (exception) method, however, that I have observed and concluded that a tiny bublet didn't really care so much what its orientation was and referred to that when commenting on Calin's single scale he had placed vertically. But for the average person with just a few scales---please follow the rules--do not disturb!

So, at this point we have two good media mixes recommented for scaling:

1. Three parts RINSED PERLITE to one part MILLED RAW SPHAGNUM MOSS
2. Two parts MILLED RAW SPHAGNUM MOSS and one part PLAY SAND or second choice, two parts MILLED SPHAGNUM PEAT MOSS and one part BUILDERS SAND.

If you read between the lines here, take note that the mix ingredients are virtually inert. The reason being that as the bublet grows, we want it to get all of its nutrition from the mother scale and consume it totally rather than have the little bublet take off on a life of its own allowing the mother scale to rott next to it.

COol info.
I just need to know what exactly this MILLED RAW SPHAGNUM MOSS is and where I can find here.
But no more scales to play with NOW.

Look at Rick's post of Jan. 21st, 2013 in the thread titled 'What Did You Do Today' for pictures of raw sphagnum moss, before and after processing. You can usually find the unprocessed wherever Orchids are sold. Milled or processed raw sphagnum is a little harder to find. You may have to go to a nursery or well stocked garden center for that. Or you can grind your own in a blender or food processor, which is what I do. The second choice, milled sphagnum peat moss is already processed, darker in color, and is much easier to find.

Here is Rick's picture showing unprocessed and processed raw sphagnum and two of mine showing a two to one mix (moss to sand) using eack type of processed moss.





The chipboard seen in the picture is what I use for top and bottom support as I turn (flip) the bag over when loading and covering scales. Used also to transport the bags when necessary.

Roosterlorn said:This flipping the bag thing has gone a little off course.

Sorry to have misunderstood. We are in agreement.

A better pic of raw sphagnum moss and milled (processed) raw sphagnum moss.

Roosterlorn said:If you read between the lines here, take note that the mix ingredients are virtually inert. The reason being that as the bublet grows, we want it to get all of its nutrition from the mother scale and consume it totally rather than have the little bublet take off on a life of its own allowing the mother scale to rott next to it.

Although I have not heard it explained that way, it makes a lot of sense. About the non-nutritive value (inertness) of the media, I reason that the main advantage is that fungal diseases have nothing to grow on, and contribute to the semi-sterile environment.

A lily grower explained once that he takes the added precaution of "washing" the cut end of the scale to remove broken cell contents. He holds them under the running faucet for 30 seconds (or some such time). The idea is that the exposed cell contents at the cut end provide sustenance (without any defenses) for a disease to grow.

i tried this once last season, and didn't find it advantageous or disadvantageous. Done on the cuff, it was a quite unscientific test, and needs more investigation.

Rick, I've never washed the cut or snapped end of a scale with that in mind. Well, at least one person had a seeming logical reason in mind and incorporated it in his practice. An interesting variation from standard practice; that's what I like to hear about--so I might try it, just to experiment too. I don't as a rule, wash my scales after scaling, especially if they are from a fresh dug healthy bulb from my own garden. I believe that every step in the process I can eliminate reduces the chance for contamination. I always work toward achieving the strongest, healthiest callus possible and believe/rely strongly on it for a good line of defense. I would be concerned that washing (as you aquaintance does), while good in thought, would wash away the weep or sap that forms a heavy callus, or leave so little left to weep the callus would be too shallow to be a good, strong natural defense. But, as I say, I'm looking for something different, so I can try something different, rather that doing the same thing over and over all the time. Next time I do a full bulb scaling, I'll try some both ways.

Here's a handy, practical little tip for everyone reading this. How many times in your travels have you seen a lily somewhere, in someones garden perhaps and you really, really want one like it, but you can't buy it anywhere? Well, chances are, if the owner doesn't have an extra plant to share, he's typically more than happy to share a couple scales in the Fall of the year. So, what I do is dig down and partially around the mother bulb (you might have to convince the owner that breaking thru the stem roots is harmless in the Fall). Then, gently separate a couple outer scales from the mother bulb and break or cut them off at the basil. Then sprinkle the hole and mother bulb with powdered captan or powdered copper base fungicide lightly. You'll have to convince the owner that you'd like to let the mother bulb callus overnight and to cover the next morning, but if either of you is uncomfortable with that, then cover it right then and there. It won't hurt the mother bulb a bit. It's something you might find handy and want to do sometime. I always say: a good lily is where you find it!

Weep sap that forms the heavy callus....
Now there's food for thought that I've never tasted. We seem to come from different direction of thought so often, Lorn, and I too find it very stimulating. Too many unknown variables for me to try to make any broad statements or assumptions. My head is filling with manufactured scenarios. I am very familiar with the defenses of woody materials, but herbaceous, not so much.

OOPS. I meant to seperate those two words with 'or'. I probably shouldn't even have used the word 'sap' either, but so many people use the words interchangably, I assumed they would relate it to what I was explaining. I also realized after reading your post, my inappropiate use of the word 'callous' where I should have used 'callus'. I have edited my last post and cleaned it up a little, although I know of one prominant North American bulb propagater/grower that uses/spells it (callous). I prefer to use 'callus'.

I think we're going to see quite a bit of slightly differing procedures from one individual to another or even from one company to another when it comes to cloning.. The one I referred to above uses milled sphagum peat moss straight in their scaling process whereas you and I like to think we go one step better and prefer to use milled raw sphagnum moss. So, it's not uncommon for differences to 'pop up' from one to another. In the end, they all work. Scales are pretty good at producing bublets regardless; I've even had scales I discarded and threw in a cardboard box, which I discovered weeks later, had formed bublets in open air. But that doesn't stop people like you and I and your acquaintance from striving for excellance as our curious minds directs us to. And only through an open discussion of our procedures coupled with an exchange of our results as they present themselves will we become even more knowledgable.

A short story about me and 'the callus': During my scaling early on, I inadvertently observed that scales tossed randomly on my Kim-Wipes, those with the cut facing up develpoed a nice callus over night and those facing down in contact with the Kim-Wipe did not appear to have developed a good visable callus. Looking closer, I saw this little stain on the Kim-Wipes wherever the cuts had made contact. Allowing them to dry further still did not appear to produce a good seal like the others where the cut was facing upward. I deducted that the weep had been absorbed by the towel and its loss resulted in the inferior callus. From then on, I've always made it a practice to place the scales with cut side up, canoe style. I don't know if it means anything but I've never experienced a spoiled scale since.

Too bad that back then in your callus story, you didn't separate the up and down facing calluses, continue with them and see if it made a difference in the end. I have to say, that except for once, I've been quite fastidious in in placing scales upfacing. Not sure why, that just what I always did. The one exception was when I had so many scales that I didn't care. Which brings up another story that I'll have to start another thread about ....

Cloned bulblets coming up: First photo (red background) taken Jan 19th, near the end of incubation and just before they went in the cooler. Last two photos show typical status today after being planted out around mid March. Not all are up--a couple of the biggest ones are still down. They never do come up all at once but surprize me when I least expect it.

Anyone who purchases an 'expensive' bulb this Spring (or anytime) should always clone a couple scales just in case the original is lost.

Cloning is almost aways faster than seeding. If the little bulblet is big enough, it will generally make a ladder stem the first year. Some crosses will develop faster than others, of course, so there's no predicting. Last Fall, I cloned three and all three were slow as the dickins in incubation, so by the looks of that, maybe only a couple will have a ladder--but, again--we'll just have to wait and see. Note the root system already growing in picture #1. When clones come out of the chill cycle, they're likely to have an even more extensive root system. And, any fragments of the original scale that remain are trimmed away, of course. For planting clones one of the handiest utinsils I found is the common kitchen pie spatula to make a wedge shapped hole so all the roots can be better positioned.

In all, I've got five pots of scaled bulblets growing this year.






Edit 04/21/13: rotated picture correctly

Well, this surely was an adventure in scaling if there ever was one. I was planning to get a few scales off some purchased Anaconda bulbs today and as I was pruning their roots, I noticed this one had a spoiled basil. The scales were solid, with almost no spoil, so instead of a few scales as planned, I ended up doing the entire bulb--salvaging what I could. This required more mix than I had made up as planned so I had to scurry up a batch. Then I found out I had the wrong freezer bags (the pleated sauce bags instead of the regular style); had to run for more gallon size bags. I already had a Moonlight and a Longiflourum Henri cross scaled out when this one threw me a curve. I had several projects going at the same time so the whole day was fast pace helter-skelter. These were trimmed free of spoil, rinsed in distilled water, dried for two hours, given a shake and bake dusting with Captan and double decked in one gallon size freezer bags--24 or so to a bag (already had 6 scales from the other Anacondas before I discovered this).




The average person would never have caught this 'bad bulb'. In fact, had I not trimmed the roots and popped off a couple scales--I probably wouldn't have caught it either, it was so well hidden and perfectly dry and still solid! But it would have failed in the garden. You might say this lucky bulb died and went to heaven--it has now been given new life. Good thing it ended up here!

Do I see that white speckling on these?
They're perfect candidate, being so darkly pigmented.

Post on the other thread if you do.

Yes, I think we do, although it less distinct. Keep in mind we're looking at the inner surface of the scales. Pics were taken after trimming but before rinsing--we have to look past the specks of perlite. I'll see if I can sneak a couple outer scales from the freezer bag and take a better look (later this afternoon).

I checked the above scales for moisture and pulled about a dozen out to investigate for spots a little further. My plan was to get some good shots of scales pulled from the outside, middle and center of the bulb. But it wasn't easy or hardly possible at this point. All scales but 4 had bublets forming and pointing toward the concave side so turning them over to show the convex or face side would have meant resting the tips of these newly formed bublets on paper. But I did find 4 that I could use for pics. Not good pics and it didn't tell me what I wanted to see--I don't think. I couldn't see any spots, only some tiny little bumps but I beleive they were already present at the time I scaled. Many, many bublets forming on the scales I pulled.






Photos are somewhat out of order

Some nice Beaverton Petimento clones made as safety backups.

Cool! I back up most of my new lilies too.

Good for you, Connie. Especially the very expensive ones and rare ones. Everyone should.

Here's a nice, healthy clone of 'Lil' Henryi, a short version of L. Henryi, by Len Sherwin (Wyoming). One more nice, even larger bulblet is in there too, but is real stubborn about coming up. Again, this scaling was done as a safety backup.

By the looks of it, I'll be doing more cloning this year than pollenating. The season is so late, time may not be there for me to get good, ripe seed. Maybe it'll be a year to just collect pollen.

Baby Anaconda clones popping up all over the place! The pot on the upper right has bublets from only frour scales plus two loose bublets. The other remaing round pot and retangular pot was planted out about ten days ago. New ones pop up every day. Anaconda apparently is an easy one to clone. The innermost scales that were less than a half inch even had little bublets forming.

Today


Back about April 28th

I too got a rotten Anaconda bulb. All the middle scales dropped away and there wasn't anything there to save. Some outer scales were still attached to the basal plate. I washed that part up, keeping it intact. After air drying I popped it into a baggie of growing mix, covered it up with more mix and set it aside. I really didn't give it much thought since then (around the same time as yours, Lorn). Now I am seeing roots around the inside of the bag.

The other two bulbs were good and each has put up two stalks.