Plant Database forum: Duplicate entrances for Begonia grandis subsp. evansiana

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Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
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bonitin
Nov 18, 2011 7:56 AM CST
I see 3 entrances for the same plant in the data base:

- Begonia grandis subsp. evansiana
- Begonia grandis
- Begonia grandis evansiana

I guess the first entry is the correct name?
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
Nov 18, 2011 8:47 AM CST
I think Begonia grandis and B. grandis ssp. evansia are both correct Myriam.

Begonia grandis evansiana would be the duplicate.

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/horticulturaldatabase/hortdatabase.as...

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/horticulturaldatabase/hortdatabase.as...

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantfinder2.asp?crit=...
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
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bonitin
Nov 18, 2011 9:53 AM CST
You're right Janet! Indeed Begonia grandis and begonia subsp. evansiana seem to be two different specie, which leave only Begonia grandis evansiana as the duplicate, I'll have to move my pictures to the right entrance! Rolling my eyes.
Thanks a lot! Smiling
Name: Robert Jenkins
North Carolina, USA (Zone 7b)
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raydio
Nov 18, 2011 2:19 PM CST
I grow this plant and have had seedlings come up without the red backing on the foliage. This got me wondering about "evansiana" and wondering if that epithet referred to B. grandis that has the red coloring.

It's been awhile since I looked into it, but at the time, I couldn't find "the last word" on it. Seem as though all the info was about the ssp and not the species proper.

R.

"Few things are harder to put up with than a good example."
- Mark Twain (1835-1910)
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
Nov 18, 2011 2:48 PM CST
If this write up is correct it's ssp, evansiana that has red under the leaves..

http://www.finegardening.com/plantguide/begonia-grandis-ssp-...

Photos showing only red veins..

http://melaniesperennials.blogspot.com/2009/08/begonia-grand...

On this site it says "sometimes red on underneath"

http://www.deeproot.co.uk/pbo/plantdetail.php?plantname=Bego...

Cruf Farm Plants will know the difference..

http://mailorder.crug-farm.co.uk/?pid=11189

They have Begonia grandis 'Sapporo' which is a strain from the name place..

http://mailorder.crug-farm.co.uk/default.aspx?pid=10368


A pdf from Begonias.org.. it comes from China, that might be the difference, and is probably different to the species from elsewhere wherever it comes from. Hilarious!

http://www.begonias.org/monthly/2004/405.evansiana.pdf

MOBOT.. Begonia grandis

http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/gardens-gardening/you...

Begonias.org has a list of registered Begonias, giving the parentage! These are species but the list could be useful!

http://www.begonias.org/registered/registeredAF.htm

Strange that they don't list species, but have some photos except these. Rolling my eyes.

http://www.begonias.org/greenhouse/imagelisting.htm

Some leaf spotting on B. grandis mentioned on this site, maybe that's the difference?

http://www.rizreyes.com/Begonia_grandis_RHR.html
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
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bonitin
Nov 18, 2011 5:15 PM CST
Oh I find it all very confusing, some of these sites contradict each other in descriptions, sigh..
If the Crug farm site is the most reliable then my plant definitely is Begonia grandis subsp.evansiana.
It doesn't has the silver spotting on the leaves like mentioned in the last link and does has deep red colouring on the backsides, even in seedlings, I might have to ask to move my plants back to where they were in the database Rolling on the floor laughing
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
Nov 18, 2011 8:07 PM CST
I just re-read the descriptions on Crug..

Begonia grandis 'Sapporo':

A very hardy form of this species from Sapporo, the capital city of Hokkaido the northern island of Japan, where the winters are severe. Distinct in foliage in this form, with large palmate dark green leaves, dark red below. On erect stems that are red at the nodes, which in turn producing bulbils in the autumn. The pink flowers are borne in terminal sprays opening from reddish buds in late summer


Begonia grandis ssp. evansiana - BSWJ11188 (the numbers at the end are the collectors initials Bleddyn and Sue Wynn-Jones - owners of Crug and plant hunters, and a collection reference number which is given as a rule until a species is given a valid name.

From a collection we gathered from the forest floor, situated at the base of the snow capped Fuji-San at 650m, in the autumn of 2005. Where this hardy species, of a mostly tender genus, grew in deep pine needle litter. With large palmate leaves, dark red on their undersides, which had borne sprays of pink flowers opening from reddish buds.


I'm seeing two things in the description of Begonia grandis 'Sapporo'. One is the very hardy description from a place with severe winters, the other is the mention of bulbils at the leaf nodes which yours does Myriam, I know it does because mine does too. Hilarious! It also got through the extremely hard winter we had, although it was in a cold greenhouse it survived where many other bulbs I had in the same greenhouse did not, and they had survived quite hard winters before.

There is no mention of Begonia grandis ssp. evansiana producing bulbils, this could be just an omittance but it could be that it doesn't make bulbils. That can be the case within the same genus, as in Arisaema ciliatum and A. ciliatum ssp liubaense, the latter is stoloniferous making small corms at the ends of threads sent out from the main corm.

It's possible that yours is actually Begonia grandis 'Sapporo' Myriam! Plant hunters share amongst each other, and I know there are some serious growers in Europe.

We might be able to find out for sure by searching, maybe not. We could contact Crug Farm to ask what they know about the differences.

Looking at the descriptions on MOBOT,

Begonia grandis:

Plants will self-propagate by tiny bulblets which form in the leaf axils in autumn and drop to the ground. Bulblets may also be harvested from the leaf axils and planted as desired. Plants may also self-seed. New season growth is usually late to appear.

Begonia grandis, commonly called hardy begonia, is the only species of Begonia that is winter hardy to the St. Louis area. It is a monoecious, tuberous-rooted, clump-forming perennial that typically forms a bushy mound of foliage to 2’ tall on branching stems. Large, obliquely ovate leaves (to 4” long) with cordate bases are medium to olive green above and reddish green with red veining beneath. Male and female pale pink flowers (to 1” across) bloom in pendent clusters (dichotomous cymes) from July to early fall


http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/gardens-gardening/you...

Begonia grandis subsp. evansiana:

Best grown in moist, organically rich, well-drained soils in part shade to full shade. Soils should not be allowed to dry out. Winter mulch is advisable in the St. Louis area where plants are not reliably winter hardy. Deadhead flowers to extend bloom period. Self-propagates by tiny bulblets which form in the leaf axils autumn and drop to the ground.

Hardy begonia is a clump-forming, tuberous-rooted perennial that typically grows to 2' tall on red stems. Ovate olive-green leaves with red undersides and conspicuous red veining form an attractive foliage mound. Drooping clusters of pink to white flowers (to 1" across) appear in August-September, sometimes blooming to frost.


http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/gardens-gardening/you...

According to those descriptions, both produce bulbils.

One main difference is they seem to be saying that Begonia grandis is hardier than Begonia grandis subsp. evansiana, although they recommend mulching in areas where B. grandis might not be so hardy.

The other main difference is the leaves, B. grandis mentions "Large, obliquely ovate reddish green with red veining beneath" where ssp evansiana mentions "Ovate olive-green leaves with red undersides and conspicuous red veining".

I would say yours is closer to the description of B. grandis in leaf shape, they are large and obliquely ovate more than ovate. The underneath colour though matches ssp evansiana, or perhaps more fitting Begonia grandis 'Sapporo'.

If you look at the bottom of the page on MOBOT you will find two more botanical varieties, reading the descriptions of leaves they vary from these two.

Where did you get the plant from Myriam, and is it possible to find out more from the supplier?

Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
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bonitin
Nov 19, 2011 12:54 PM CST
Thanks Janet! I got the plant from a nursery in the Wallony in 2005, ( the French speaking part of Belgium)
The owner is very sympathetic, so I have contacted him by e-mail, had to dust my French though Hilarious! Hopefully we'll get a reply
http://www.varens.be/


Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
Nov 19, 2011 1:56 PM CST
The catalogue you linked to is all ferns I think Myriam. I got the browser address on google and translated it, it's not the easiest site to navigate! You can get their entire plant list in the 'overview' or the 'interactive catalogue of perennials'. They don't have any Begonias listed now, I hope they can be of help!

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http:/...

The link reverts to the fern page! Hilarious! Going to the 'how to order' link gives the catalogue links in the left column, in English. Rolling my eyes.
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
Image
bonitin
Nov 19, 2011 3:22 PM CST
No, I was also surprised the Begonia is not listed on their catalogue but that is where I got it from..maybe theirs didn't survive the last two winters which are harder than in Flanders, being on higher altitudes ..yes, the site is not the easiest to navigate Rolling my eyes.

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