Plant Database forum: New entry for Podophyllum delavayi

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Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
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bonitin
Dec 9, 2011 3:54 PM CST
Dave, as i got a comment on my entry of Podophyllum veitchii 'Marbled Leaves' from Strever who found out P. veitchii being a synonym of P. delavayi, I tried to make a new entry under the name Podophyllum delavayi 'Marbled Leaves' , but the system says it already exists and leads me back to my entry of P.veitchii 'Marbled Leaves' ?
Not sure now what to do..
Chinese Mayapple (Podophyllum delavayi 'Marbled Leaves')
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Dec 9, 2011 4:01 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Is Podophyllum delavayi 'Marbled Leaves' a different plant from Podophyllum veitchii 'Marbled Leaves'?
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
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bonitin
Dec 9, 2011 4:21 PM CST
Well, I really don't know, I bought the plant like I have entered it as Podophyllum veitchii 'Marbled leaves' but as Strever said that Podophyllum veitchii is a synonym of Podophyllum delavayi, I deducted that P.veitchii 'Marbled leaves' must be a synonym of P.delavyi 'Marbled Leaves'

This is what I found on the web and that seems to confirm what Strever pointed out.
http://www.lazyssfarm.com/Plants/Perennials/P-Q_files/P-Q_Im...
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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dave
Dec 9, 2011 4:45 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Okay, that linked helped. I have edited the plant to change the species to the appropriate one, and I added the old species as a synonym. I think that settles the matter. Smiling
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
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bonitin
Dec 9, 2011 5:06 PM CST
Thanks Dave! Smiling
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
Dec 9, 2011 8:05 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

I tip my hat to you.
Name: Dick Strever
No.Calif amongst the Redwoods
Region: Pacific Northwest I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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Strever
Dec 10, 2011 11:23 AM CST
i think the "marbled leaves" is a sales pitch by the nurserys
see
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/1827/
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
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bonitin
Dec 10, 2011 11:49 AM CST
That could well be, Dick. I bought the plant when still very small from a grower specialized in unusual plants for the shade. It was very pricy too, unfortunately I lost it after its 3th winter in my garden, I'm still not sure what made it give up the ghost, the cold or the wetness. I tried to buy another from the same grower, but he said he didn't grow it any longer because being too difficult... Sad
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
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eclayne
Dec 10, 2011 6:27 PM CST

Plants Admin

Per Tropicos: Podophyllum veitchii and P. delavayi are synonyms of Dysosma delavayi. http://www.tropicos.org/Name/50186768?tab=synonyms
Per Kew WCSPF (in review) synonyms of Dysosma veitchii: http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-2779831
ITIS lists none of the above.
Green Grin! Good Luck!
Evan
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
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bonitin
Dec 10, 2011 6:43 PM CST
Oh noooo! Blinking Hilarious!
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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eclayne
Dec 10, 2011 6:59 PM CST

Plants Admin

Myriam, Seems to me these folks enjoy the fracas.

Since Tropicos references "Flora of China Editorial Committee. 2011" (select the References tab) that seems to be the latest and greatest. Since Kew WCSPF is in review maybe the Tropicos should be used.

What do you all think?
Evan
Name: Dick Strever
No.Calif amongst the Redwoods
Region: Pacific Northwest I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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Strever
Dec 10, 2011 11:15 PM CST
Dave
this is a common problem for us (hobby gardeners)
as Todd Boland says in his article on Daves Garden http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/1827/
and on Nargs http://www.nargs.org/nargswiki/tiki-print.php?page=Podophyll...
Scientists give us opposing information Grumbling
as Evan shows Tropicos only recognizes Dysosma as the Genus and the 2 species are synonyms of each other Confused

the only thing in print for us (hobby gardeners) is the very comprehensive book by William T. Stearn
"The Genus EPIMEDIUM and other Herbaceous Berbidaceae including the Genus Podophyllum (a Botanical magazine monograph)"
which many of the members of the alpine groups are quoting
the only other article i know of is the magazine article by Dan Heims of Terra Nova in Pacific Horticulture April/May/June 2011
this book and magazine article show the genus as Podophyllum and Veitchii is a synonym of delavayi Confused

only time will show us the final answers

Dick Strever

[Last edited by Strever - Dec 10, 2011 11:27 PM (+)]
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Name: Dick Strever
No.Calif amongst the Redwoods
Region: Pacific Northwest I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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Strever
Dec 10, 2011 11:23 PM CST
Myriam
if delavayi/veitchi is not happy in your garden zone ?
you might want to try Spotty Dotty for it's hybrid vigor, it looks VERY similar.
it is still standing proud and pretty in my garden and delavayi has already succumbed to winter temps

Dick


Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Dec 11, 2011 7:32 AM CST
It doesn't matter which I search for on the RHS, it always brings up Podophyllum delavayi. Their references are a little old though and I don't know how often they update. It seems with other sources here they don't update on a regular basis but leave the name as accepted just in case it happens to change again, I know this was true of a fly on the diptera site here which lists all the present species. That doesn't however mean it is correct, the name of the fly had changed somewhere around 2005/6 and I had found a reference to it in an article. When I asked why they had not updated to the current name as recognised in Europe the reply I got was as I have said, it is left just in case it changes again and they go by the name used by the Royal Entomological Society.. I think the last update had been done around 1999!

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/horticulturaldatabase/hortdatabase.as...
[Last edited by JRsbugs - Dec 11, 2011 7:34 AM (+)]
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Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
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bonitin
Dec 11, 2011 10:01 AM CST
Thanks Dick, I do have Spotty Dotty too since a couple of years, it is doing very fine so far, and yes, it looks like it is tougher than the one I lost. It is gorgeous too, I love it! Smiling

To add to the confusing nomenclature, I have entered in the data base Dysosma veitchii var as that was the name given to me by a specialist grower from the Netherlands. Rolling my eyes. So should it stay like that?


And do we have to take the RHS as the authority Janet, even if they don't update ?
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
Dec 11, 2011 10:18 AM CST
The RHS as well as ITIS are both recognised authorities Myriam, sometimes you will find a species on both or either. ITIS seems to only list species.

I can't say whether the RHS updates regularly, they may not have updated this particular species because they don't accept the changes. If you search for any of the given names it always takes you to Podophyllum delavayi. I guess that is what we should be using.

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/pfgenera.asp

Always beware names given by sellers, some will use a different name in order to make the buyer believe they are getting something different so it's a good idea to check out both the RHS and ITIS if it's not in the RHS.

It's always a good idea to search just for the genus in some cases, here's a list for Podophyllum ..

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantfinder2.asp?crit=...
Name: Dick Strever
No.Calif amongst the Redwoods
Region: Pacific Northwest I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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Strever
Dec 11, 2011 8:25 PM CST
Myriam
i think it doesn't matter if we have a Dysosma in the database until the the EXPERTS can make up their mind
But
do you have your veitchii and your Spotty Dotty both together in this image ?
http://garden.org/pics/2011-09-25/bonitin/e27e7d.jpg

the flower on the left is coming from the fork as should it for delavayi/veitchii
the flower on the right is coming from half way up the petiole as if it is spotty dotty
or maybe P.versipelle

bonitin said:Thanks Dick,
I do have Spotty Dotty too

To add to the confusing nomenclature,
I have entered in the data base Dysosma veitchii var. So should it stay like that?


[Last edited by Strever - Dec 13, 2011 3:14 PM (+)]
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Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
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bonitin
Dec 12, 2011 2:32 AM CST
No Dick, really this is the same plant in the picture; Dysosma veitchii var., all the pictures in that entry are from the same plant as I only have one.
As I learned my lesson with loosing Marbled leaves I keep it in a pot I take inside in the winter.

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