Permaculture forum: Permaculture Shrubs & Vines 9b

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Name: Chris Powell
Glendale, AZ (Zone 9b)
Living a better life; if times get
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milkmood
Feb 14, 2012 8:49 AM CST
Hello ATP...I came over from DG, heard Dave on The Survival Podcast ( http://goo.gl/4ZuJq ) recently.

Anyway...

I am interested in permaculture versions of shrubs and vines for a shaded north exposure for 9b. Any suggestions?

Thanks!
C
[Last edited by milkmood - Feb 14, 2012 9:05 AM (+)]
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Name: Susie
Phoenix AZ (Zone 9a)
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Aguane
Feb 14, 2012 4:54 PM CST
Hi Chris! I do remember you, of course. Glad you discovered the Survival podcast Dave participated in. It was very informative. Glad you've come to visit us.

Now, about the permaculture versions of shrubs and vines. I don't know about this method and I'm hoping someone will stop by with some useful information. I can suggest, too, that you have a look around at the other forums for some help. I'll see what I can find, too.

Glad you're here. There is lots of good information with so many of the folks from DG now sharing here.

Susie
“Don't give up too quickly"... unknown, I heard it somewhere.
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Name: Margaret
Near Kamloops, BC, Canada (Zone 3a)
Region: Canadian Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Tip Photographer Garden Ideas: Master Level I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
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mcash70
Feb 14, 2012 5:17 PM CST
Hi Chris! Welcome! to ATP!!
Name: Susie
Phoenix AZ (Zone 9a)
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Aguane
Feb 14, 2012 5:33 PM CST
Here is a link to what's going on with the Plant Database (upper left tab on your homepage.)

The thread "Introducing our Plant Database!" in Plant Database forum
“Don't give up too quickly"... unknown, I heard it somewhere.
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Name: Alma
Phoenix & Cottonwood, AZ
USDA zone 9b, Sunset 13 & ??
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tomatofreak
Feb 14, 2012 6:04 PM CST
I'm not sure there's such a thing as a "permaculture version" of a plant, but these folks can surely answer your question. http://www.phoenixpermaculture.org/ Hope this helps.
Alma
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. – Thomas Jefferson
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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dave
Feb 15, 2012 8:45 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

milkmood, what kinds of shrubs are you looking for? Are you wanting production of edible fruits, or just ornamentals? Do you want to provide food for wildlife?

What's the soil like in that area?
Name: Chris Powell
Glendale, AZ (Zone 9b)
Living a better life; if times get
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milkmood
Feb 15, 2012 11:37 AM CST
Edible, cannable, useful stuff. I'm thinking along the lines of rosemary, which makes great low hedges in our climate. But also fruit, nuts, berries, vines like vanilla, etc. I'm also considering some prickly pear cactus, but I'd like to know if there are varieties that produce more fruit than others.

Soil is useless for the most part...very heavy and hard. A caliche layer often runs anywhere from 6" to 36" deep. Always has to be amended except for native plants.

Heat in the 9b summers is a major factor. Daily highs average 107, and can reach 118 in an average summer.

I do have friends here who have figs, pomegranate, apricots, passionfruit, and some other non-citrus trees. They've offered me cuttings of those, which I intend to take them up on. But I'd also like hedges and vines.

I'm headed over to check out the Phoenix Permaculture site that TF recommended. And by "permaculture version", I just meant productive rather than merely decorative. It's the software guy in me coming through. *Blush*
Name: Chris Powell
Glendale, AZ (Zone 9b)
Living a better life; if times get
Permaculture Vegetable Grower Container Gardener Herbs Organic Gardener Dog Lover
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milkmood
Feb 15, 2012 5:31 PM CST
Found this amazing resource: http://cals.arizona.edu/maricopa/garden/html/general/CitrusS...

Keep in mind, this is for Zone 9b.
[Last edited by milkmood - Feb 22, 2012 3:18 PM (+)]
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Name: Charleen
Barnesville, Ga. Zone 7b-8 (Zone 8a)
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Ridesredmule
Feb 22, 2012 2:12 PM CST
blackberries, I got wild ones that tear up my hand now I'm learning to wear gloves....Think they would love growing in a Permaculture...
Thanks again
Name: Chris Powell
Glendale, AZ (Zone 9b)
Living a better life; if times get
Permaculture Vegetable Grower Container Gardener Herbs Organic Gardener Dog Lover
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milkmood
Feb 22, 2012 2:17 PM CST
Blackberries are considered weeds in Oregon/Washington where I'm from. I believe they were introduced and now grow everywhere very vigorously. I remember as a kid in Canby, OR having a large blackberry bramble in our yard, and I had a fort inside of it. Even the now-wild ones up there produce excellent berries.

Do they grow wild in GA ?
Name: Susie
Phoenix AZ (Zone 9a)
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Aguane
Feb 22, 2012 3:16 PM CST
Very cool you've taken on Permaculture forum, Chris!

I'm from Northern California and berries of all kinds grow like crazy and wild. Along many roadsides, in fields, even my own yard in Los Altos. We were cautioned to not eat the berries growing along busy roads because of the fumes, toxins, dirt. They were so abundant elsewhere it was easy to follow those instructions.
“Don't give up too quickly"... unknown, I heard it somewhere.
~ All Things Plants, SOUTHWEST GARDENING ~Cubits.org ENERGY & POWER
Name: Charleen
Barnesville, Ga. Zone 7b-8 (Zone 8a)
Walk in Peace / I'm Charley's Mom.
Miniature Gardening Mules Tip Photographer I sent a postcard to Randy! I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Lover: Loves 'em all!
Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Level 2 Seller of Garden Stuff Butterflies Birds Region: Georgia
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Ridesredmule
Feb 22, 2012 4:19 PM CST
Durn, you were brave having a fort inside a Bramble bush. I've got all kinds of dead trees around here Guess I need to start hauling em in and start planting, huh????
Think I'll use the smaller ones...
Name: Chris Powell
Glendale, AZ (Zone 9b)
Living a better life; if times get
Permaculture Vegetable Grower Container Gardener Herbs Organic Gardener Dog Lover
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milkmood
Feb 22, 2012 5:34 PM CST
Charleen, yeah, I was like, 5-6. I didn't have a clue. Even had a campfire in there with my friends, and a subsequent lickin' with the wooden spoon. Grumbling

Save those dead trees and read Dave's article on hugelkultur now linked in a sticky at the top of this forum.
Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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Horntoad
Feb 22, 2012 8:51 PM CST
milkmood said:Blackberries are considered weeds in Oregon/Washington where I'm from. I believe they were introduced and now grow everywhere very vigorously. I remember as a kid in Canby, OR having a large blackberry bramble in our yard, and I had a fort inside of it. Even the now-wild ones up there produce excellent berries.

Do they grow wild in GA ?

USDA shows 237 species of Rubus ( blackberries ) and I only counted 11 that were listed as introduce, the rest are native.
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=RUBUS
wildflowersoftexas.com
texasnatureonline.com


Name: Kristi
east Texas pineywoods (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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pod
Feb 22, 2012 9:07 PM CST
I understand considering edibles for the permaculture landscape but I also like to include herbals and medicinals.

I'm not as familiar with what will grow in your zone but here, I will be planting Vitex trees which will serve to feed the birds as well as be used for medicinal applications.

Another small native tree that provides light shade and can be used medicinally is the Prickly Ash Hercules Club aka toothache tree. The bark can be peeled and applied for its' numbing effect orally.

Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
tropicbreeze
Feb 23, 2012 9:20 AM CST
milkmood said:..... vines like vanilla, etc.

Chris, vanilla vines are tropical orchids, They can't take cold temperatures.Unless you keep them in a heated glasshouse they wouldn't survive. Pollination is also a difficult issue.
[Last edited by tropicbreeze - Mar 31, 2012 2:01 AM (+)]
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Name: Charleen
Barnesville, Ga. Zone 7b-8 (Zone 8a)
Walk in Peace / I'm Charley's Mom.
Miniature Gardening Mules Tip Photographer I sent a postcard to Randy! I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Lover: Loves 'em all!
Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Level 2 Seller of Garden Stuff Butterflies Birds Region: Georgia
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Ridesredmule
Feb 23, 2012 10:44 AM CST
Gourds would probably work.

Charter ATP Member
hazelnut
Feb 23, 2012 11:32 AM CST
http://www.ars-grin.gov/npgs/orders.html

The national plant germplasm system can offer cuttings of fruit trees that might be adapted to a dry climate with caliche soils. I remember seeing some Egyptian figs in this list once. You do have to have some research or educational motive to be qualified to obtain the cuttings. Also, California fruit growers is another resource. Most fruiting plants like full sun though --even in Arizona.

http://www.ars-grin.gov/npgs/orders.html

The permaculture designs that normally include fruiting plants are hedgerows or food forests.
Name: Chris Powell
Glendale, AZ (Zone 9b)
Living a better life; if times get
Permaculture Vegetable Grower Container Gardener Herbs Organic Gardener Dog Lover
Birds Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Region: United States of America Region: Southwest Gardening
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milkmood
Feb 23, 2012 1:20 PM CST
Vanilla would grow in the shade where I am in Phoenix. Would need to be covered 3-5 nights a year for the cold, but otherwise, it would be a bee magnet at a minimum.
Name: Chris Powell
Glendale, AZ (Zone 9b)
Living a better life; if times get
Permaculture Vegetable Grower Container Gardener Herbs Organic Gardener Dog Lover
Birds Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Region: United States of America Region: Southwest Gardening
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milkmood
Feb 23, 2012 1:56 PM CST
Hazel...interesting link, but they say in the text :

"Due to the intensive effort and resources required to ensure availability of germplasm for this purpose, we are unable to distribute it for home gardening or other purposes that can utilize readily available commercial cultivars."

Wonder if we could claim permaculture as "research" as it specifies in the Order Request Shrug!

I'm going to try it and see what happens.
[Last edited by milkmood - Feb 23, 2012 1:58 PM (+)]
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