Maybe you have rights and authorizations on that site, and you're welcomed back automatically?

Or you're logged into some organization that they recognize?

Rick: "the difficulty of understanding 'systems' at all"

I once designed a class for the study of primates. This was in San Diego. It was a 101 anthropology class. The kids had free access to the SD zoo, and they were required to read all of the field studies on any primate of their choice. The assignment for the semester was to write a paper based on an "interaction grid". They had to account for the behavior of each kind individual in a group of primates: Adults, males and females, sub-adults, males and females, children, males and females, and infants.

What we found out as that you can pretty much define a system, by observing what all of the individuals within it do on a routine basis: identify the significant parts, then specify how they interact. For this assignment, that strategy worked very well.

Sorry Dave, for being off-topic in your thread.

I understand if you want to Sandbox the last dozen or so posts! This is, after all, a 'sticky thread".

Your approach (smart) is a necessary part of studying anything complex: pick a level of abstraction that is manageable. it sounds like you're picking "primate behavior" or maybe "social interactions within their social group".

That might be a practical level of understanding, but my guess is that most of the one-semester papers specialized in certain kinds of behavior to keep it more manageable. The more things you're trying to correlate at the smae time, the harder it is.

If primatology is like fields of science that I've been exposed to, most practitioners specialize very tightly within that field, I'm guessing things like "feeding behavior", "dominance", "child care", hunting".

Trying to understand (all at the same time), their role in human politics, agriculture, poaching, tourism, zoo policies, land use policies, epidemiology (human and other), genetics, evolution, and endangered status would be unmanageable.

The higher the level of abstraction, the fewer details are considered. But when high-level behavior is determined by low level details, I think the field is just plain hard to handle. Like ecology, medicine, psychology, economics and politics.

Even soil science is a toughie! Microbiology was hard enough for me.

The interaction grid was meant to be a model for observation within and between each kind of individual. Adult males vs infants, children, sub-adults, adult females, and other adult males. And take that down the line for each type of individual. No there were no presumptions (just as Fukuoka had none). Just watch what happens. And yes there were implications for zoo policy--shortly after this the primates were re-organized into groups rather than being housed in individual cages, in part as a result of this study. This is Albert, the engaging silver back who started the whole thing.

He looks very thoughtful. What a beautiful coat.

Hi all. I'm new so let me introduce myself as an SFG all organic gardener. In 2012, I started with 5 veggie beds and 2 herb beds. Three more ( all, thanks to my son) were added this year for Strawberries, Rhubarb and Asparagus. My summer this year will see the planning and addition of perennial flowers and ornamentals to round it out. Hopefully, in the fall, I'll be adding an intensive planting of 3 dwarf fruit trees. I'm sure I'll be learning lots here from everyone. Happy gardening. (Is there any other way?) :))

Hello fellow permies, my name is Daniel. I'm new to ATP and just wanted to introduce myself. I live in SC zone 7b and love everything pertaining to plants especially learning new permaculture practices to incorporate in my edible landscape. I look forward to meeting other like minded people and hope to make a few friends along the way.

realyrosey: you came in when my computer was down so I didn't get a chance to welcome you to the Permaculture Forum. Please feel free to post. Right now it appears everyone is out working on their gardens--but we welcome any insights from people gardening around the country. 3 dwarf fruit trees --what kind are they? And where are you?

ediblelandscapingsc. What kind of permaculture practice have you been involved with so far? In Alabama, zone 7 is north of me--along the Tennessee River. I am an archaeologist and did you know that prehistorically the Tennessee River Valley was characterized by such natural abundance that when agriculture was proposed it was rejected. Why grow crops when you live in an area of natural abundance? All you need is a basket and some fishin' line to live well!

I've experimented with several permaculture techniques until I found things that work for me. Plant guilds, mini swells, and chop & drop are practices I use throughout the landscape. I've tried things like hugelkultur, and adding animals to the system but both weren't for me. I look to nature for most of my inspiration when it comes to gardening in general and though I have tons of diversity in my landscape I also plant many native edibles to my area. I live 30 minutes south of Charlotte NC in Catawba SC. we also live in a place of abundance. Everywhere I go I'm pointing out edibles just there for the taken. Spring through Fall there is no reason for a person to go hungry in my area yet local farmers still fight with pest and diseases in an effort to grow row crops, peaches, or apples. It boggles my mind why so many farmers haven't figured out that modern agricultural practices just aren't working.

You mentioned persimmons elsewhere, what other kinds of native fruits are you growing? Do you grow elderberry. I guess mulberry is not native, but it has some medicinal value. Gertrude Jekle advised putting in a mulberry at some distance from other fruits, so draw predators/bugs away from the ripening fruit. I find Gertrude Jekyl actually had a lot of permaculture style ideas.

As far as native fruits go I grow Vaccinium Atrococcum aka V fuscatum, wild and named muscadines, wild and named persimmons, wild and named elderberries, wild and named pawpaws, American & Chickasaw plums, Passiflora incarnata, wild and named mulberries, and Staghorn sumacs off the top of my head but I'm sure there are others.

Inspiring! That's what I wanna do! What do you do with the sumacs?

Sumac berries can be used to make a lemonade flavored drink but I usually let the birds get them so they stay off my more prized fruits. Poison Sumac lives in the swamps and has white berries, make sure to stay away from them.

Can the sumac berries be powdered and used in Middle Eastern cooking? Falafel tastes great when sprinkled with sumac.

I guess, but I never had Falafel or used them powdered before.

Hi gang! I am so glad to have found this forum!! We live in the city, and our lot is small. Just 42 feet wide by 150 feet long. We've always been sensitive to our environment and live as sustainable a life as possible, but there's definitely room for improvement, hence my research on permaculture begins, and I look forward to learning from the masters, of this forum!!

Hi, Dana - no master here for sure. But love to have more conversation here. I've read about a lot of tips and techniques but have been slow putting them into practice. I live in oak/hickory wooded area, in a subdivision with wetlands and a creek behind me so I'm definitely conscious of what I do in the garden.

Hullo, new to Garden.org as well as the Permaculture forum. I go by D, and I live in Saucier, MS, zone 8b. I've mainly been an herb and vegetable gardener since I was a kid, got an Environmental Tech degree & took the state Master Naturalist program, so I am very interested in gardening and the natural world. I am now in my 5th decade. We have 6 acres in mostly pine woods, sandy soil.
I have been wanting to implement permaculture concepts on our property for several years now, but it has been a slow process.
Looking forward to learning and hopefully occasionally contributing on the forum!
Thanks!!

D! Your area sounds very similar to where I live in east Texas. I will be interested to follow your successes with permaculture.