Daylilies forum: Article explaining Sculpted Daylilies

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Name: Juli
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daylily
Apr 23, 2012 8:39 AM CST
Char wrote a very nice article that is up today about sculpted daylilies.

http://garden.org/articles/view/Char/344/Sculpted-Forms-a-ne...

I think if more people saw these in person, they would understand them better, then like them more. They are sort of a hands on form. Thumbs up


This is Rainbow Mesa


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Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
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Hemlady
Apr 23, 2012 10:01 AM CST
That is real pretty!!!
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Name: Lyle
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lyle627
Apr 23, 2012 11:11 AM CST
I understand them - but still don't like the fact, one bloom constitues a form....


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Name: Rita
North Shore, Long Island, NY
Zone 6B
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Newyorkrita
Apr 23, 2012 12:13 PM CST
Not my style. But something for everyone I guess is very true.
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Apr 23, 2012 4:18 PM CST

Moderator

lyle627 said:I understand them - but still don't like the fact, one bloom constitues a form....








Lyle, I do not understand what you mean by it being fact that one bloom consitutes a form. Can you please explain what you mean?
A bloom can display another form than that which it is registered, Patterns in Time showing a polymerous bloom, but it does not make it a registered poly.
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Name: Lyle
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lyle627
Apr 23, 2012 4:55 PM CST
How many blooms per scape dose the AHS require for you to register a sculpted seedling as a sculpted form?
Name: Elizabete Rutens
(Zone 10b)
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ElizabeteRutens
Apr 24, 2012 1:12 AM CST
Thanks, Juli, for pointing our attention to Char's article! And many, many thanks to Char for all of the invaluable info in that piece! Since the form was only registered in 2010, it would be very time-consuming to determine which registered cultivars prior to then have (some of) the genetics that developed sculpted daylilies. It's great to have an historical sketch that gives clues about which cultivars - registered prior to 2010 - contributed to a new form.

In my own garden, I was pleasantly surprised to see Salter's "Moon Over Monteray" (a superb cultivar because it's an EMO and not rust-prone) show a distinct sculpted relief form, though highly dependent on the temperature. Some of its progeny also have this form, but it isn't easy to figure out whether it was specifically some part of "Moon Over Monteray's" ancestry that passed on this trait. Thanks much for the detailed ancestry info! : )

Elizabete

PS Like Lyle, I'm curious about AHS' requirements for registering a sculpted seedling. "Moon Over Monteray" looks great even if temps don't reach 70 F degrees in the day. But, it's only when it's warmer that sculpting occurs.

Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

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spunky1
Apr 24, 2012 4:52 AM CST
I would think the answer to Lyles question, it would be up to the hybridizer, if he thought the percentage was high enough, like doubles, he could registered it as a sculpted form. If I ever register one it will be a high percentage. 100% is ideal, but no form of daylily under certain conditions will be perfect every bloom.
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
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Hemlady
Apr 24, 2012 6:27 AM CST
Interesting article. One think I didn't see mentioned that I read on a thread, I believe on DG, was that Lavender Blue Baby was said to pass on genetics of the feathered type look. Anyone else come across that info???
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Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
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Hemlady
Apr 24, 2012 6:36 AM CST
Well I answered my own question. Texas Feathered Fancy has Lavender Blue Baby as the pod parent. Checked it's genetics on Tinkers.
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Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Apr 24, 2012 6:42 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

You could have also checked the genetics here at ATP:

Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Texas Feathered Fancy')

"Parentage: Lavender Blue Baby x unknown"
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
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Hemlady
Apr 24, 2012 6:49 AM CST
Thanks Dave, I did realize that after I checked Tinkers, lol.
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Name: bb
north of boston on the coast
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lilylady
Apr 24, 2012 7:15 AM CST
Curt Hanson has introduced many pinched throats, even before they started getting popular. I'll need to refer to the article again to read what they are called now.

John Karl Seager
Nosferato
Rock Lobster

way back when!

I had not realized it was a heat related form.
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Apr 24, 2012 7:41 AM CST

Moderator

Fred's right, hybridizers are responsible for the registration of their daylilies. A percentage box does not guarantee a daylily is correctly registered or will even perform at the registered percent for that form in your garden. There is no set requirement for a certain percentage of sculpted form blooms per scape, just as there is no set percentage requirement for blooms per scape with any other form. What is being measured by a percentage is consistency of form, not whether it is or isn’t a form, form is chosen by a hybridizer. Consistency is something hybridizers of all daylilies struggle with, not only in form, but other traits as well – opening, teeth, pattern, bloom size, color, etc. There are many factors that can have an effect on consistency.

I didn't want to spoil all the fun of researching sculpted forms, Smiling just give a place to start for those that might be interested. I've seen some images of Moon Over Monteray showing relief and I believe Dan Hansen has used it in some of his relief forms. Lavender Blue Baby is in the background of several cristates, Texas Feathered Fancy, Michael's Sword, Greetings Earthing...Tet LBB could possibly be useful as well. Finding which cultivars can produce sculpted forms should help us in the quest for improving consistency....
Name: Elizabete Rutens
(Zone 10b)
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ElizabeteRutens
Apr 24, 2012 8:28 AM CST
Greetings!

bb wrote: "I had not realized it was a heat related form."

I just want to repeat that Salter's "Moon Over Monteray" is a sculpted relief form in **my** garden only when daytime temps are over 70 degrees F. Perhaps elsewhere temperature is not an issue for this specific cultivar. I've no idea whether other sculpted relief cultivars need 70+ degree F temps.

All the best - Elizabete
[Last edited by ElizabeteRutens - Apr 24, 2012 8:29 AM (+)]
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dormantsrule
Apr 24, 2012 8:37 AM CST
spunky1 said:I would think the answer to Lyles question, it would be up to the hybridizer, if he thought the percentage was high enough, like doubles, he could registered it as a sculpted form. If I ever register one it will be a high percentage. 100% is ideal, but no form of daylily under certain conditions will be perfect every bloom.


Agreed.
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Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

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spunky1
Apr 25, 2012 4:28 AM CST
When the program was done at the Mobile Club, people were interested but the old timers were not crazy about all this new stuff. For years if we saw some of this, we would have called it a flaw in the bloom, not knowing some were working hard to perfect this flaw. It's unreal how far daylilies have evolved since I started in the early 90s.
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
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tink3472
Apr 25, 2012 4:55 AM CST
I see a problem with these forms being judged in the shows. The judges are supposed to get familiar with these forms with training available in clinic 1 & 3, however, if they did not take the class or read the handbook thoroughly then I forsee problems. The reason is because these forms are going into the SINGLES SECTION and they may be viewed as flawed and either points deducted or marked "judged". In the Pensacola show I know at least 2 of the judges will know these forms and I'm sure at least 2 others will be know them before they get to our show because they are judging the Mobile, AL show and they are good at keeping up with changes and if not they will be informed at the Mobile show. The last 2 judges I'm not sure about and I will be including the information in the judges packets we send out to them.

I wish these forms had a section of their own like Spiders have their own and UFs have their own. I know not many people in our area have these, it's more Northern I believe, but IMHO it would be easier for these not to be judged as flawed blooms if they were.
[url=www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com]www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com[/url]
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Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Apr 25, 2012 6:22 AM CST

Moderator

From experience gained during the process of having the sculpted forms recognized I can tell you, not everyone likes these forms and for various reasons. It's ok not to like them if they don't appeal to you, but for those of us who do enjoy them and can see the posibilities of working with them, they are exciting and we want to talk about them. Some people don't like change, but given an opportunity to learn about something new, acceptence is possible.Some may even find they like them.

Michele,

I agree 5000% about the show class, but getting a seperate section for Sculpted at this time was not going to happen.There are reasons as to the why they do not have their own section. The best I could do at this time was to keep all three sub-forms together in the singles size sections for now. I'm sure some will view them as flawed singles, which they are not. Another problem relates to the cristate form and the incorrect view that they are a double flower, which they are not. Some of the early cristates registered are incorrectly registered as double. Because exhibitions classification follows registration, my understanding is these have to be exhibited in the doubles class due to their registration - correctly registered cristates will be in with single. The cv's that are incorrectly registered and exhibited as double will need to be disqualified for displaying incorrect form in that class, further confusing the issue.Until Exhibitions makes the changes needed for correctly recognizing Sculpted Forms with their own section there will be problems.
In my mind, judges are responsible for learning what is new, different and any changes made to Exhibitions. Just as those in charge of Judges Education are responsible for making sure the correct information is available so judges can learn to judge these forms correctly. It's a matter of principle and responsibility.

Name: bb
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lilylady
Apr 25, 2012 7:09 AM CST
"In my mind, judges are responsible for learning what is new, different and any changes made to Exhibitions. Just as those in charge of Judges Education are responsible for making sure the correct information is available so judges can learn to judge these forms correctly. It's a matter of principle and responsibility."

Absolutely!

I've never much been into exhibition daylilies, as I feel that daylilies are a garden plant, not a cut flower and the total plants should be judged, not just a blossom. However as a garden judge, the above statement also applies.

The older I get though, the harder it is to 'rename' something that I have been calling by another for the past few years. Getting old stinks!

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