Just saw and advertisement for an itoh called "All That Jazz." It looks familiar but I can't put my finger on it. Could it be Lollipop? Another classic case of renaming?

I googled it

https://www.jacksonandperkins....

Interesting! $89 for Spring delivery.

No info that I could find on who bred this peony. Smith?

Several of the big distributers seem to offer it

I looked at all don Smith's peonies in APS registry, Candy Cane looks a bit similar but the color is different.

Yes, Don Smith.
'All That Jazz' was introduced in 2009 but has become available in quantity only this year. Belgian and Dutch nurseries have been propagating it like crazy, hence expect the usual Itoh pricing curve: $80-100 when new, $40-50 in a couple of years and $25-30 for two/three bareroot plants in five.

Unfortunately, it is not on the APS Registry:
http://www.americanpeonysociet...

Thank you for the info, ElPollo and Anya!

Mieko2 said:Thank you for the info, ElPollo and Anya!

You are welcome.

Just a quick information you people may found "illuminating".
There are already at least three nurseries in The Netherlands and Belgium propagating this cultivar. I don't know where US plants come from, but I know several Dutch nurseries have long-term contracts with US sellers to supply them with bareroot and potted peonies and also have the rights to sell those same plants on the European market.
'All That Jazz' is already available for pre-order in several Eastern European countries for $35-40 (potted) which in my opinion is the right price for this peony, and all the most recent Itoh. Nobody is losing money on that peony at that price.

To be more precise there were only four actually original 'Itoh" hybrids, of which all were yellow: ' Yellow Crown", Yellow Emperor, & I think 'Yellow Heaven & another "Itoh 'Yellow , starts with a D... ( sorry, forgot) The others, so-called "ITOH" are likely hybrid descendants resulting from those four original 'Itoh' (intersectional?) hybrids.
Mr. Itoh apparently did not live long enough to see the flowers bloom. I think they were finally registered many years afterward, about 1974 with the American Peony Society,.

that would be yellow dream

You bring up an interesting question...

seems like many of the so called Itoh hybrids are related to P. (Lutea Hybrid) Alice Harding rather than directly to the original Itoh hybrids.

of course, I think all of the original Itohs are Alice Harding hybrids.

so, the question is, are any of the original Itoh hybrids parents of the current Itoh hybrids?

As far as I know there are no descendants from the original four Itoh peonies and even from other intersectional hybrids registered in APS although I have not checked all 141 cultivars. I read that some people got seeds from intersectional hybrids but I doubt they were registered. I know two "Itoh" cultivars originated as mutations from a parent "Itoh" peony (White Emperor from Yellow Emperor and Love Affair from Prairie Sunshine), probably all the rest are results of crossings between a herbaceous and a tree peony.

There was a picture of a peony bloom on Planet Peony, think it was last week, where the pod parent was Bartzella. That one was the very first I've ever seen with any Itoh as a confirmed parent although there are a few "sports".

ShawnSteve said:To be more precise there were only four actually original 'Itoh" hybrids, of which all were yellow: ' Yellow Crown", Yellow Emperor, & I think 'Yellow Heaven & another "Itoh 'Yellow , starts with a D... ( sorry, forgot) The others, so-called "ITOH" are likely hybrid descendants resulting from those four original 'Itoh' (intersectional?) hybrids.
Mr. Itoh apparently did not live long enough to see the flowers bloom. I think they were finally registered many years afterward, about 1974 with the American Peony Society,.

Itoh or Intersectional peonies have a huge problem for breeders: they are all triploids, meaning they have three sets of chormosomes, meaning they have such low fertility their seeds are to all purposes steriles. All the Itoh we grow these days are so called first generation or F1 hybrids, meaning they all descend from crossing a Tree peony with a Herbaceous peony and further propagation by clonal methods. Peony genetics started to be well understood only in the late 80's/early 90's, and since it takes almost a decade for any cultivar to go from seedling to the first commercial introduction it explains why the number and quality of Itoh peonies has "exploded" over the past decade.

The Holy Grail of peony breeding would be of course a second generation (F2) hybrid. The chances of an F1 Itoh of giving viable reproductive material are one in six million if I remember correctly. Not exactly encouraging, albeit there have been a number of seedlings produced over the years. At last check Don Smith had two and there's a breeder in Australia (Dr Bernard Chow?) with several more.
Whether these seedlings will turn out to be fit for being introduced on the commercial market and/or further hybridization remains an open question.

Louis Smirnow from Huntington NY bought several of the original Itoh hybrids in Japan from Dr Toichi's widow and the most commercially palatable of these became the first generation of Itoh introduced in 1974. The fourth Yellow is Yellow Dream. He later introduced the first two pink Itoh, Pink Heaven and Pink Symphony, which had originated from sister seedlings, a rare occurence.
Smirnow had a passion for obtaining peonies directly from Japan and later China: some of the cultivars he introduced in the West such as Fan Tan are of unknown parentage either because records had been lost during the war or because they were sold to him as "very ancient", meaning take it or leave it.

Very interesting, Elpollo! All this back and forth crossing will someday result in a blue peony, perhaps?

kousa said:Very interesting, Elpollo! All this back and forth crossing will someday result in a blue peony, perhaps?

Peonies, just like roses, haven't got the genetic coding for producing blue pigments (in flowers it's usually delphinidine).
Suntory of Japan claimed success in creating a blue rose called Applause through genetic manipulation: I've seen these roses and they don't look blue to me. In fact they look a whole lot like stronger growing cousins of the Charles De Gaulle Thea hybrid, which is a nice shade of violet. Personally I wouldn't have put them on the market because they look like an expensive joke but I suspect the R&D people at Suntory were under tremendous pressure and had to deliver something.

Hi Y'all. I think the original intent by Mr. Itoh, was to produce an intersectional plant, but also to introduce yellow into the mix. Like sort of attempting to do two things at once. Multitasking, is what it may be called now days. Yeah, when you get too many chromosomes in the mix, you may just about reach the end of the experiment. But using colchicine to change the shoots, chromosome number & the resulting seeds, may be affected, in chromosome number, too. Like those triploid Daylily,, for example., getting up there... I have noticed some perennial plants I grow from seeds, sometimes just don't want to produce any seeds...
(Edit, to remove my question.) I thought that some of the original four, made it to France, also ?
According to Smirnow in an article I read, the original four were eventually "lost'. But, the results of Mr. Itoh's successful intersectional cross, was repeated, (using the same known parents ) then those resulting plants were used to introduce other intersectional named cv.;s too.

ShawnSteve said:Hi Y'all. I think the original intent by Mr. Itoh, was to produce an intersectional plant, but also to introduce yellow into the mix. Like sort of attempting to do two things at once. Multitasking, is what it may be called now days. Yeah, when you get too many chromosomes in the mix, you may just about reach the end of the experiment. But using colchicine to change the shoots, chromosome number & the resulting seeds, may be affected, in chromosome number, too. Like those triploid Daylily,, for example., getting up there... I have noticed some perennial plants I grow from seeds, sometimes just don't want to produce any seeds...
(Edit, to remove my question.) I thought that some of the original four, made it to France, also ?
According to Smirnow in an article I read, the original four were eventually "lost'. But, the results of Mr. Itoh's successful intersectional cross, was repeated, (using the same known parents ) then those resulting plants were used to introduce other intersectional named cv.;s too.

To answer your question: one of the original Itoh hybrids from Japan or, more likely a partition, was still in existence as of last year, but it's in private hands and the owners apparently have no interest in propagating it. Being very long lived plants it's likely unless something dramatic happens it will still be around for a long time.
There are all sorts of rumors floating about on where the original Itoh hybrids ended up, but it seems most were either sold in Japan or simply lost/destroyed after Dr Toichi's widow passed away. My contacts in Japan have never seen any Itoh outside known commercial varieties, so that's most likely it.

Oh yes, and the one in six million chanches of having partial fertility in an Itoh are after treatment with Colchinine... these are very stubborn plants.

@ElPolloDiablo Thank you for your answer. I can't imagine that every single plant, of the four had disappeared entirely. I would imagine, unless it is well guarded, someone will eventually manage to get a piece of it. I did see one that I thought looked alright; 'Morning Lilac'. But, some of the photos the colors didn't look anything like the others . Yeah, I know a little about colchicine, as my dad had gout....

ShawnSteve said:@ElPolloDiablo Thank you for your answer. I can't imagine that every single plant, of the four had disappeared entirely. I would imagine, unless it is well guarded, someone will eventually manage to get a piece of it. I did see one that I thought looked alright; 'Morning Lilac'. But, some of the photos the colors didn't look anything like the others . Yeah, I know a little about colchicine, as my dad had gout....

Yes, colchicine is nasty stuff: my grandfather overdosed on it and ended up in a hospital for weeks. Once he came out he was never the same again due to neuromuscular toxicity. That's when I learned the meaning of the phrase "stick to the prescribed dosage".

I'm hoping someone on this thread can help me...I just bought three bare root All That Jazz and I want to plant up the area with complimentary plants/flowers. It could be years before I get a bloom and I'm having a hard time deciding what color it will be from the internet pictures. I found this post and was wondering if anyone had any suggestions. Thank you for any ideas you might be able to give me. Kelly