Roses forum: Pegging down D.Austin roses

Page 1 of 2 • 1 2
Views: 870, Replies: 25 » Jump to the end
Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche, Rio Negro, Argentin (Zone 8a)
Roses Dahlias
hampartsum
Jan 31, 2019 11:06 AM CST
Hi folks I was wondering if any one has had any experience with pegging roses. I've got at least three different D.As that seem to thow up very long and pliable canes. My first two "pegged" are Scepter'd Isle and Eglantyne. Both just simply grew downwards. The latter is just a cane that almost nipped off during a windy spell and now is growing just above ground. The former has a naturally arched long cane that was literally covered in buds for the first flush and now is getting ready for a second sending new shoots upwards from every node each with a new set of buds. Now this summer I added a few more DA's : Summer Song has the same habit. So I was wondering how to grow all of these. I got a batch of 5 SSong. Francine Austin grows flat close to grow in a ray fashion with huge clusters of flowers at the end of each of these very low canes. I'm delighted with all of them but would love to hear about others who might have ventured before me.Arturo
Name: Lola
Tasmania
Keeps Sheep Roses Cottage Gardener Garden Photography Birds Farmer
Image
LolaTasmania
Feb 1, 2019 2:21 AM CST
OK, I'm intrigued, Arturo. What is pegging? Is it pegging the long canes to the ground in order to create a thicket? Is it pegging the canes close to the ground but not touching it to create a wider, bushy shrub? I would love it if you could post photos. Lola.
Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
Image
AquaEyes
Feb 1, 2019 10:32 AM CST
In my experience, pegging works best when you stretch the canes outward without bending them all the way down to the ground. Except for some Ramblers and Climbers, roses with canes that arch down lower than their points of origin will experience dieback after the the bloom on anything lower than the lowest point of that cane at the base. So if you want to fan out the canes, imagine them being trained outward but on a very gradual incline without a dip downward. This can mean something as minor as simply spreading the canes to give the rose the shape of a wide-flared inverted traffic cone, or fanning out horizontally as if against an invisible fence.

What will happen is that instead of blooming just at the tips of the canes, flowering laterals will sprout all along the canes wherever they are held between 45 degrees and horizontal. After the first flush, trim the laterals back to growth buds below the bloom. You'll likely see new basal canes emerging after the first flush -- these need to stiffen a bit before you try to train them, or else they'll kink, so let them do as they wish until the end of the season. You'll get rebloom on the trained canes, and possibly some bloom on the newly-emerging canes.

The following year, those trained canes from the previous year may be bloomed-out, or maybe they have another year in them -- you can tell by looking at them. If they appear as if they're becoming deflated, that means they're on their way out. I usually let them bloom again for the first flush, but I have last year's new canes trained down to replace them. Then, after the first flush, I cut out last year's pegged canes and let last year's new canes replace them. And then the cycle continues.

:-)

~Christopher
Zone 9, Sunset Zone 9 (Zone 9b)
Roses
Image
Mustbnuts
Feb 1, 2019 11:00 AM CST
Thank you Christopher for the great explanation of what to do!
Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
Image
AquaEyes
Feb 1, 2019 12:11 PM CST
A visual aid, using the Bourbon 'Souvenir de Victor Landeau' as an example, through the years.

2012, still in a pot
Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/5a4e71


2013, still in a pot
Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/20681d


2014, first Spring after planting in Summer 2013
Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/50506b

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/4bcdc0

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/f9f2e0

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/108088

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/56fdc6


2015
Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/fc0a87

'Souvenir de Victor Landeau' is pink....'Golden Celebration' is on the right, trained in more of an upside traffic cone shape.
Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/c9568b

July 2015 -- getting ready for second flush, and you can see how the blooming laterals shot up
Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/e662b7


2016 -- you can see that this rose starts arching on its own, and I just guide it to where I want it
Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/ee9d60

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/65bc6b

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/832caf

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/2b3b4e

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/db3013


2017 -- my work schedule kept me out of the garden too much, and this rose got away from me, which meant it went too long without training and ended up being gawky
Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/50770a

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/e2e32e

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/061e31

Autumn 2017
Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/fddcdf


I got it back under control somewhat in 2018 -- I could have done it faster by cutting it back hard and starting over, but I would have missed a lot of blooms that way. I'd rather it be more horizontal, so that will be the goal for 2019.
Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/a1c4ce

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/db105d

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/0dc12a

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/115ac0

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/b06c61

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/1028f2

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/e481a1

Thumb of 2019-02-01/AquaEyes/c52d3d


:-)

~Christopher
SW Ohio River Valley (Zone 6b)
Image
vaporvac
Feb 1, 2019 1:22 PM CST
I did experience the aforementioned dieback on Munstead Wood on one cane only, but didn't on both New Dawn and Zaide. ND is, of course, a climber, but Zaide is a shrub rose that wanted to be a climber so I let it! Both cascade up and over their enclosure and hang down well below their point of origin. So.... I guess it's worthwhile experimenting and if it doesn't work out, there's only a bit of cane death. I'm doing similarly to Christopher with some "climbing" Austins and Hybrid Musks as this seems to be their natural habit. I'll post pics if anyone likes.
Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
Image
AquaEyes
Feb 1, 2019 1:54 PM CST
@vaporvac -- that "not dying back to anything lower than the point of origin" might be a lingering trait of R. wichuraiana in Hybrid Kordesii roses. Or maybe it's just a generalization with the odd exceptions.

:-)

~Christopher
Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche, Rio Negro, Argentin (Zone 8a)
Roses Dahlias
hampartsum
Feb 1, 2019 3:36 PM CST
@aquaeyes Cristopher, your detailed set of pics of the various growing stages of pegging down couldn't be more descriptive! Thank You! I suppose @LolaTasmania, that Cristopher has provided the best explanation far superior to any that I could provide! I have only just one year of a bent/arching cane. As soon as Scepter'd Isle puts out its next flush I'll post pics of it. By growing horizontally canes instead of vertically, the tip dominance dissappears and all lateral buds become flower bearing, so the outcome is a much more floriferous bush. This is the same principle as applied to espaliering ( both fruit trees or climbing roses). However this simply happens much nearer to the ground and just needs a peg driven inside the soil so one can tie the long cane onto it while still pliable. This conclusion is what I arrived to when I just missed a long upward thrusting cane and it got nipped off in a windstorm ( very frequent here). By growing it low, canes are much less prone to breaking off in a storm, no need for extra stakes and plus the bonus of multiple flower clusters instead of a single one at the tip of the cane. I even prune off the last node next to the tip to induce all the lower ones to bloom.
I have at present 32 different D.A's growing here. Not all shrubs send out these basal long canes. Many are naturally much better behaved and new basal breaks stay within the shape of an upright or rounded bush. An example of the latter would be 'Noble Anthony' or 'Mary Rose'. They would be unsuitable for pegging down.
Christopher, you are suggesting that Golden Celebration could be another candidate for pegging down. Do you have others ( perhaps Molyneux, The Pilgrim, Crown Princess Margharetta) ?
My garden keeps changing every season, and this one is no exception. @vaporvac many of my bushes tend to do what they "really" want and grow into unexpected shapes. Please do post some of your pics, because it widens our growing choices. So if necessary I only end up by lifting and moving them around to a better placing.
Its that part of understanding better how to grow these shrub roses.
Actually, I would love to hear about OGR grown similarly. I have a 'Mme Pierre Oger' bush that possibly would show off its blooms much better if grown thus rather than as an upright bush.
Thanks all for your input! Thank You!
Arturo
Coastal Southern California (Zone 13a)
Image
jerijen
Feb 3, 2019 3:26 PM CST
I did it. It gave me one spring of glorious bloom. Then, all of those canes died back to the highest point.

I would never do it again. It was a brutal process, and in the end, not worth it.
SW Ohio River Valley (Zone 6b)
Image
vaporvac
Feb 3, 2019 3:52 PM CST
Jeri, do you remember what roses you used?I was disappointed to lose that can on Munstead Wood. I think the Hybrid Musks do this naturally if left to their own devices. My Falstaff is too young for pics, but even Summer Romance was encouraged to give some lateral blooms. I dig up some of New Dawn and Zaide cascading down my retaining wall.
Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
Image
AquaEyes
Feb 3, 2019 5:20 PM CST
jerijen said:I did it. It gave me one spring of glorious bloom. Then, all of those canes died back to the highest point.

I would never do it again. It was a brutal process, and in the end, not worth it.


That's why I don't peg to the ground. The tip of any cane I peg will always be higher than its origination point. So, anything emerging from the ground will be at least a few inches above that. And anything emerging from an existing cane will also be above the beginning of that cane. Doing this, I don't experience dieback, because there's no cane going down -- even if it looks totally horizontal, there's still a gradual incline.


I do note, however, that doing this to canes results in them getting "exhausted" faster, and it's not worth keeping them when that's obvious. So, a cane's first year it'll shoot up or out, usually blooming at the tips for the second flush or by Autumn. Then it'll be trained into place before leafing out the following year, and bloom heavily for the Spring flush, and sometimes the second flush. I'll usually see some more blooms in Autumn, and I leave them in place for the following Spring. But at pruning time, I notice that last year's pegged canes will look as if they "deflated" compared to newer canes. Sometimes they're good for the first flush of that year, sometimes they're just in the way and I cut them out. But either way, they're gone by the end of the first flush of that year, which would be their third -- first year emerging, second year trained in place, third year maybe good for the first flush, but gone after that.

It does take some time, but not a terrible amount -- I figure that pegging 'Souvenri de Victor Landeau' is equal to the prune time for Spring, then the rest of the year I'm just spurring back laterals. But maybe where there's no Winter, things seem more involved because you don't experience a long period of not getting into the garden. By pruning time, being out there for a few hours is actually something I'm itching to do, so it doesn't seem (to me) to be as much work.

:-)

~Christopher
Name: seil
St Clair Shores, MI (Zone 6a)
Image
seilMI
Feb 3, 2019 5:31 PM CST
I tried it with Golden Celebration and Graham Thomas. My results were much the same as Jeri's. I have them both on trellises now and just try to tie them as horizontal as possible.
Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche, Rio Negro, Argentin (Zone 8a)
Roses Dahlias
hampartsum
Feb 3, 2019 7:45 PM CST
I wonder why canes espaliered do not die back, while pegged down may do so. I'm also considering espaliering quite a few of my climbers. So I'm trying to understand the pro's and con's of growing these D.Austin's, beyond the conventional way. Also I'm sure that the local growing conditions differ so much that what works in one location may not do so in another. Our winters are mild enough so that I can practically do garden work most of the time ( beyond my propension to procrastinate because it is chilly). The ground hardly ever freezes permanently although it may be hard to work a few hours at dawn, but will thaw later during the day. So my conditions in that sense are similar to those described by Christopher.
My rose garden and collection is quite recent, the oldest are in their fifth growing season. So I'm interested in experimenting with differing growth strategies as I get to understand what works best here.
Arturo
Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
Image
AquaEyes
Feb 3, 2019 10:08 PM CST
The critical difference is when canes are bent down lower than their highest points (sometimes) or their points of origins (most times) -- because in many roses, sap doesn't flow well downward. Roses with rambler or rambling species ancestry seem able to handle canes that hang lower, but when there's a lot of shrubby species in the ancestry, they're more inclined to "want" their canes going upward at least somewhat, and can tolerate them at horizontal, but experience dieback beyond the points going downward. When I see pictures of roses pegged to look like giant spiders -- canes going up, then arching down, with tips pegged to the ground -- I assume that after the bloom, anything below the zeniths of their canes will die back.

So, my version of pegging is more like training as if growing against a structure like a trellis, wall, tripod, or something similar. But the only structures holding the canes in place are stakes or tree branches. I try to spread them wide, and with as much near to horizontal as possible, but still with the tips of the canes ending up higher than the bases.

If you don't like the look of stakes, you can still use the pegging pins. But just don't use them to pin down the canes. Instead, use twine or something similar to make a loop between the pins and the canes you want to bend down, making sure that the canes still finish higher than their points of origin. If you start with some canes lower down, you can then use twine to tie those canes to the next canes higher up. It looks weird when you're doing it before they leaf out, but foliage will hide the twine later -- especially if you find some in black.

It does take some time to figure out how you want the canes to go. My advice is to start with the ones that will allow themselves to be trained the lowest, then work your way up. It'll take some fiddling, and I never get it just how I want it on the first try. But once it's done, I'm glad I did it. And since there's only a few I do this way, it's not as laborious as doing a whole garden.

:-)

~Christopher
Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche, Rio Negro, Argentin (Zone 8a)
Roses Dahlias
hampartsum
Feb 4, 2019 2:58 AM CST
Thank you Thank You! Christopher for your detailed explanation. One of my canes is laid flat on the ground as if I had intended to layer it ....I didn't...it just broke half way and I felt sorry for it and let the breakage heal . So now this plant ( 'Eglantyne')has a horizontal cane. I haven't seen any tip die back and from each node its pumping out buds. The other ('Scepter'd Isle') just arched and produced a first very generous flush and is getting ready for a second. The tip is at least 6" above the origin.I don't need it any lower. So If I understood correctly I shouldn't expect any die back from it either. Neither were deliberately pegged. I simply let the wind blown cane find a confortable position and fixed it to a bamboo stake so that the wind doesn't rock it any further, with a black twine.
Arturo
Name: Carol
Alberta, Canada (Zone 3b)
Image
Canadian_Rose
Feb 4, 2019 1:10 PM CST
Wow, Christopher! You've really explained this well...and your garden is glorious!! Well done and thank you! Hurray!

fisherwoman
Feb 4, 2019 4:08 PM CST
In spring Alchemist arched over the garden showing the other roses " This is how it's done." It sends it's own canes straight out at the bottom, and bows it's top canes down in a floral umbrella. The photo was from 2015, and every year since then I wanted to send Alchemist packing with it's vicious thorns , but I can't when it knows how to display it's better qualities so well. If only it's blooming lasted as long as the others.
Thumb of 2019-02-04/fisherwoman/8c760b

[Last edited by fisherwoman - Feb 4, 2019 4:17 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1902472 (17)
Name: Carol
Alberta, Canada (Zone 3b)
Image
Canadian_Rose
Feb 5, 2019 11:31 AM CST
Fisherwoman - wow!! That's a great Alchymist!!! Such gorgeous flowers, and I love the shape of the bush!
Name: Shyam
San Francisco, CA (Zone 10b)
Image
Rose_Guy1127
Feb 5, 2019 7:29 PM CST
@AquaEyes: It was an educational read on pegging with visuals, thank you, Christopher! Is it possible to apply pegging technique to the container roses? I always wondered how the images (like the one below) in the DA website and brochure display roses in containers appearing to be full-bodied with blooms. I would like to achieve the similar for my container roses like The Poet's Wife.

Thumb of 2019-02-06/Rose_Guy1127/3288aa

Image source: DA website.

Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
Image
AquaEyes
Feb 5, 2019 8:51 PM CST
That looks more like something resulting from pruning than pegging. But, if you want to use pegging in a container, you'd start by pruning to all outward-facing eyes, aiming for canes that form an inverted traffic cone shape. If those canes are between 45 degrees and horizontal, you'll get growth laterals that sprout from them. If you then prune those 45 degree to horizontal canes back to upward-facing bud eyes, you'll have increased the diameter of the bush. Those canes growing up should then be pruned back to the lowest outward-facing buds, and this alternation repeated.

:-)

~Christopher

Page 1 of 2 • 1 2

« Garden.org Homepage
« Back to the top
« Forums List
« Roses forum
Only the members of the Members group may reply to this thread.

Member Login:

Username:

Password:

[ Join now ]

Today's site banner is by greenappleagnes and is called "Sedum Autumn Joy"

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.