Sandbox forum: What can we do about climate change?

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Name: Mac
Soon to be MidCoast, ME (Zone 6a)
Ex zones 4b, 8b, 9a, 9b
Cat Lover Birds Hummingbirder Butterflies Frogs and Toads Vermiculture
Critters Allowed Vegetable Grower Canning and food preservation Annuals Morning Glories Sedums
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McCannon
Feb 24, 2019 7:10 PM CST
I think CA is the only state that requires that warning though the label is used across the board because we're all buying the same products. As it stands right now, there are a great many things that we use that have some hazardous content, for which there is no currently available substitute. At some point the engineers and chemists will create those substitutes but I don't think that's a top priority as long as the current hazard level is quite low. ROI has a lot to do with that.
The aboriginal people of the world and many other cultures share a common respect for nature and the universe, and all of the life that it holds. We could learn much from them!
Name: Jan Wax
Mendocino County, N. CA (Zone 9a)
I'm a studio potter.
Hummingbirder Dog Lover Irises Region: California Organic Gardener Dahlias
Garden Art Cat Lover Vegetable Grower Birds Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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janwax
Feb 25, 2019 12:19 PM CST
Latest evidence for man-made global warming

https://www.reuters.com/articl...
let the mystery be
Name: Sue Taylor
Northumberland, UK
Charter ATP Member Bulbs Bookworm Amaryllis Houseplants Annuals
Garden Photography Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Foliage Fan Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads
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kniphofia
Feb 25, 2019 12:35 PM CST
69F in Wales here in the UK today, the warmest winter day on record. I had 60F driving home from work at 4 pm in the north of England - unheard of for February. My sister sent a photo of a butterfly on her snowdrop blooms today, bees yes, but butterflies?
Hampton, Virginia (Zone 8b)
Butterflies Morning Glories Annuals Irises
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ShawnSteve
Feb 25, 2019 12:56 PM CST
Apparently, States may join in, if they decide to do so. I won't go into, what Country , emits the most CO2 & what the percentage of that total is, compared to others....
Name: Mac
Soon to be MidCoast, ME (Zone 6a)
Ex zones 4b, 8b, 9a, 9b
Cat Lover Birds Hummingbirder Butterflies Frogs and Toads Vermiculture
Critters Allowed Vegetable Grower Canning and food preservation Annuals Morning Glories Sedums
Image
McCannon
Feb 25, 2019 12:59 PM CST
Good article, Jan. Thanks for posting.

Sue, we've had a strange winter here too. For us it's been a case of rapid fluctuations between cold and warm over a matter of days.

@ShawnSteve I think anyone that's paying attention knows the answer to that question.
The aboriginal people of the world and many other cultures share a common respect for nature and the universe, and all of the life that it holds. We could learn much from them!
Hampton, Virginia (Zone 8b)
Butterflies Morning Glories Annuals Irises
Image
ShawnSteve
Feb 25, 2019 1:24 PM CST
If we were to lead in the expenses towards developing innovative ways towards renewable technology & it all gets stolen, then who really pays for it?
Meanwhile, some are on the platform, of figuring out who is paying for higher education & health care costs...
Name: Jan Wax
Mendocino County, N. CA (Zone 9a)
I'm a studio potter.
Hummingbirder Dog Lover Irises Region: California Organic Gardener Dahlias
Garden Art Cat Lover Vegetable Grower Birds Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Image
janwax
Feb 25, 2019 3:11 PM CST
Australia is having very hot temps during their summers too, so I've heard.
let the mystery be
Hampton, Virginia (Zone 8b)
Butterflies Morning Glories Annuals Irises
Image
ShawnSteve
Feb 26, 2019 8:55 AM CST
@janwax I haven't read much about Victoria, Australia & wildfires, as I am fairly unfamiliar with most of it. I know camels were introduced.... Smiling Some is arid, others rainforest areas...But there seems to be some suggestion, that it is partly related to drought during heat in dry summer climate, with El nino influence & even the Eucalyptus trees. It became a rather densely populated area, of Australia, so therefore the fires become more hazardous, to life & property.
Regarding the Higgs-boson sub-atomic particle, wasn't that discovered by CERN, the Hadron collider that emits large quantities of CO2, in it it's quest at scientific discovery? ( I think they may be trying to build a "green" version.) In any case, after that "God particle" then it seemed to discredit Hawkings mathematical equation, but confirming Einstein's "Theory of Relativity," ( my use, of the name of his Equation) became the actual basis, for coming to the conclusion, Einstein's idea wasn't just theory, but there really is a warp, or "wrinkle, in time & space."

The old saying "Rome wasn't built in a day" seems appropriate, as to finding a solution... If Emperor Nero was accused of setting Rome on fire, but tried to make it more safe by widening street & rebuilding, with less wood, & more of their long lasting cement....we should have learned from past mistakes. (later; Great fire of London & in Chicago.)
I tried to keep it short & simple, so I apologize for any "errors" in attempting to process & express my thoughts. Keep in mind, I am no expert on this, please. As a small note, there was a book (haven't read it) titled "The Climate Files', about theft of scientific data, about how climate studies were conducted, author Fred Pearce..
But, I must say, I really do believe CO2 is a major problem, created by humans, making the situation worse, daily. At least we can use our knowledge, to do what WE can, about it, State by State, so it seems..
In the meantime, I hope we can adjust to the changes & can cope with any resulting major climate changes/ disasters .
Lastly, with the hope we eventually leave this planet, to future generations, with more power to exercise more control, over future 'Carbon Footprints."
Southern Ohio (Zone 6b)
Save the cows
Irises Organic Gardener
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hippie
Feb 26, 2019 9:29 AM CST
go Amish, and they grow incredible irises.
Iris Grower and Hippie Lives Matter
[Last edited by hippie - Feb 26, 2019 11:06 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1917052 (9)
Name: Mac
Soon to be MidCoast, ME (Zone 6a)
Ex zones 4b, 8b, 9a, 9b
Cat Lover Birds Hummingbirder Butterflies Frogs and Toads Vermiculture
Critters Allowed Vegetable Grower Canning and food preservation Annuals Morning Glories Sedums
Image
McCannon
Feb 26, 2019 11:00 AM CST
A World Without Clouds
https://www.quantamagazine.org...
The aboriginal people of the world and many other cultures share a common respect for nature and the universe, and all of the life that it holds. We could learn much from them!
Hampton, Virginia (Zone 8b)
Butterflies Morning Glories Annuals Irises
Image
ShawnSteve
Feb 26, 2019 11:59 AM CST
@janwax I am fairly sure the earth's orbit around the sun, isn't a perfect circle. During our winter in the Northern hemisphere, the earth is closer to the sun. So, the Southern Hemisphere, during their summer, is when the earth is closer to the sun & that includes Australia. But, I have absolutely no clue, as to why Antarctica is so much colder in winter, than the Arctic polar region is, during our winter time.! Maybe, due to the polar opposite, proximity?
Doomsday report; What happens if the earth changes its' polarity? Geez..
Name: Mac
Soon to be MidCoast, ME (Zone 6a)
Ex zones 4b, 8b, 9a, 9b
Cat Lover Birds Hummingbirder Butterflies Frogs and Toads Vermiculture
Critters Allowed Vegetable Grower Canning and food preservation Annuals Morning Glories Sedums
Image
McCannon
Feb 26, 2019 12:38 PM CST
Science explains it all.

What Causes the Seasons?
https://www.weather.gov/fsd/se...

Why is the South Pole colder than the North Pole?
https://www.scientificamerican...
The aboriginal people of the world and many other cultures share a common respect for nature and the universe, and all of the life that it holds. We could learn much from them!
Hampton, Virginia (Zone 8b)
Butterflies Morning Glories Annuals Irises
Image
ShawnSteve
Feb 26, 2019 5:59 PM CST
I had planned to explain some of the differences of polar SEA ice, amounts of accumulation, factors affecting the differences & melting,, Due to so much commotion today, I am too tired to go into the details, at the moment. I had tried to get a short nap & no sooner had I done so, then there a phone call, for me. I will post more about that later, when I can actually devote the time to properly post about the subject, without so many interruptions. Shawn
@McCannon p.s I usually check the date of data link sources & more recent data, is helpful. Even if I had meant polar sea ice & not temperature differences. That was supposed to be a "play on words" of polar ice caps & "proximity" & just wanted to end the post quickly, due to my attention being required elsewhere...Ergo, ending with Geez...
Name: Mac
Soon to be MidCoast, ME (Zone 6a)
Ex zones 4b, 8b, 9a, 9b
Cat Lover Birds Hummingbirder Butterflies Frogs and Toads Vermiculture
Critters Allowed Vegetable Grower Canning and food preservation Annuals Morning Glories Sedums
Image
McCannon
Feb 26, 2019 6:02 PM CST
@ShawnSteve Understood Smiling .
The aboriginal people of the world and many other cultures share a common respect for nature and the universe, and all of the life that it holds. We could learn much from them!
East-Central Mississippi (Zone 8a)
Any silver lining could have clouds
Region: Mississippi Native Plants and Wildflowers Cactus and Succulents Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
RadlyRootbound
Feb 26, 2019 7:02 PM CST
First of all, let me say that mankind's pollution and disregard for Nature is appalling, and the realities of situations such as the enormous islands of floating plastic bottles in the Pacific are inexcusable, as are, even more damaging, the plastic bags left floating in the oceans to kill hungry sea turtles that mistake them for jellyfish. Add to that the toxic industrial (as well as agricultural) wastes and run-off that poison our environment and groundwater, and we, as a species, are certainly not practicing good stewardship with the wonderful gifts given to us.

However, we, as individuals and as a society in whole, cannot let ourselves be led to blindly join and support a cause that may appear altruistic and honorable to us at first glance, but upon deeper understanding may actually be simply a power play or self-serving for those public figures promoting the "progressive" social movement.

When you stop campaigning long enough to crunch the numbers, how long does it take for adopting a new, more fuel efficient, less polluting vehicle to replace an older one, to really start being a positive influence on the environment? First you have to think of how much negative impact the construction of the new vehicle has on the environment. When you add up not just the pure energy it takes to produce the vehicle, but how much new waste material and CO2 is fed into the environment in creating the metals, plastics and other chemicals required by the new vehicle, the negative impact on the environment is substantial. Also, there's the environmental damage imposed in the extraction of raw materials from the Earth. So just how long does that new vehicle have to operate before that huge sum of negative impact on the environment begins to "pan out"? And don't forget to include the environmental negatives of operating the vehicle (gas, oil, CO2) the whole time your trying to get to that elusive environmental "break even" point. What if you had just kept your old vehicle? Maybe the newer vehicle produced 50% less exhaust pollution than the older one, but if the older one was built within the last 15 or 20 years and running properly, chances are that the exhaust pollution from it was already so low that the difference is minute in actuality. If the older car's exhaust contained 5% of pollution, then the new car (at 50% less) would produce 2.5% pollution. 2.5%? How long do you have to drive the new car with that tiny improvement to compensate for the massive negative environmental cost to manufacture it, as compared to just driving your old one? (Of course, this just takes into account the purely environmental reasons for purchasing a new vehicle, whether electric, hybrid or conventional.)

Windmills? Aside from the high initial environmental impact of manufacture, they account for a very high number of deaths of threatened raptors, as well as other environmentally beneficial bird species. These are not the large-bladed, slow moving windmills once used by the Dutch; today's windmills are sharp-bladed, fast-moving and deadly machines, aside from the fact of a slow return on the investment and expensive maintenance.

As for "climate change", Earth's climate has always been changing, just much less so since mankind has been recording it. In fact, geological records indicate we've enjoyed an unusually long run of relatively stable climate, to the point that we're "spoiled" and want to cry out when the climate resumes it's normal fluctuations. We simply don't like changes. There have been relatively recent and unusually warm periods which enticed the Vikings to expand into Iceland, Greenland and even North America, before growing cold again. France once taxed wines from England because the climate at that time allowed the Brittish vineyards to produce better wines than French vineyards. And, of course, there was the "Little Ice Age", during which glaciers grew to overtake many European towns, and created the very dense wood used by Stradivarius to make instruments with astounding sonic qualities. And if you investigate further, you will find that it is not only global circumstances and events that affect our climate, but the influences of the Sun as well as the other planets in the solar system. Think of the immense force required to keep Jupiter circling the Sun; surely that must affect Earth when it gets caught between them, tectonically, at least!

There are many more things affecting Earth's climate than CO2 levels, and have been for millions of years. Do we need to make wiser choices and think of long-term repercussions of our waste footprint? Of course we do, individually and culturally. I was taught early-on to not leave my drink containers, chip bags, food wrappers or any other of my trash laying around. True, my vehicle sometimes has trash on the floorboards, but I NEVER throw trash out the window! I even stick little gum wrappers back in my pocket if there's no trashcan handy. If everyone would simply begin to be responsible for their own litter, the organized "clean-ups" wouldn't be needed anywhere. Or even--imagine this!--when they see it, individuals began to pick up trash someone else may have accidentally left! That would make a tremendous difference by itself.

The ongoing "politically correct" environmental debate may not be as cut-and-dried as it first appears. If you look behind the curtain, you may realize that certain global agreements don't apply pollution standards evenly between countries, and some are given a free pass to pollute while others are penalized even though their pollution restrictions are comparatively high. Also, scientists are awarded vast sums of money to further investigate the "climate change" phenomenon, so is it in their own self-interest to say, "Well, we thought we were onto something, but we were wrong", or to keep the money mill grinding away by putting out data selected to support their "climate change" agenda? Do you know that the most recent USDA Zone map was initially created with raw data, but the first two submissions were rejected because they didn't fit with the "global warming/climate change" agenda? The original data was scrutinized and "adjusted" until the government was satisfied that it fit the "politically correct" official line. (And you thought that kind of juggling of the truth only happened in Russia and China, didn't you?)

Live with as little intrusion upon and as much respect for Nature as you can do so happily, but be wary of swallowing the party line without researching further on your own. All those Russian and Chinese peasants who rose up and supported the Communist Party were expecting freedom, not more intrusive dominance. It all sounds like rainbows and flowered fields when people in power (or who want power) speak, but the "simple truth" they portray is rarely simple.

Radly

"He who says his plants are always bigger & better than anyone else's and his grass, greener, is likely feeding them manure, like he's feeding you." ~Radly
[Last edited by RadlyRootbound - Feb 27, 2019 5:21 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1917392 (15)
Name: Mac
Soon to be MidCoast, ME (Zone 6a)
Ex zones 4b, 8b, 9a, 9b
Cat Lover Birds Hummingbirder Butterflies Frogs and Toads Vermiculture
Critters Allowed Vegetable Grower Canning and food preservation Annuals Morning Glories Sedums
Image
McCannon
Feb 26, 2019 7:36 PM CST
Climate science has improved exponentially in recent years. The technology we have now didn't exist decades ago.
The aboriginal people of the world and many other cultures share a common respect for nature and the universe, and all of the life that it holds. We could learn much from them!
Name: Richard or Shawn
Joshua Tree (Zone 9a)
Birds Irises Ponds Orchids
Image
creativeclover
Feb 26, 2019 7:48 PM CST
I don't know. What the full answer is for climate change.


But part of it is to regulate animal darts. Less output of bad gas or they can just tax more.

Own more irises. We each should own 500 different named ones.

3rd is less,crummy pizza, providing a new York slice with italian herbs, roasted garlic butter brushed on the crust. Kalamata olive, grilled chicken, banana pepper, red onion, and mozzarella/parm cheese and bacon.
Name: Sue Taylor
Northumberland, UK
Charter ATP Member Bulbs Bookworm Amaryllis Houseplants Annuals
Garden Photography Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Foliage Fan Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads
Image
kniphofia
Feb 26, 2019 11:17 PM CST
Let's stop calling it "climate change" and call it what it is - "climate breakdown". Yes of course weather patterns vary and fluctuate, but I think what we're seeing is exceptional once in a 100 years events becoming commonplace. Will we really wait for food production to be catastrophically affected before we act?
Name: Mac
Soon to be MidCoast, ME (Zone 6a)
Ex zones 4b, 8b, 9a, 9b
Cat Lover Birds Hummingbirder Butterflies Frogs and Toads Vermiculture
Critters Allowed Vegetable Grower Canning and food preservation Annuals Morning Glories Sedums
Image
McCannon
Feb 26, 2019 11:22 PM CST
We have reports of "once in 500 years'" events happening several times in one year. Primarily floods but other weather events as well.
The aboriginal people of the world and many other cultures share a common respect for nature and the universe, and all of the life that it holds. We could learn much from them!
East-Central Mississippi (Zone 8a)
Any silver lining could have clouds
Region: Mississippi Native Plants and Wildflowers Cactus and Succulents Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
RadlyRootbound
Feb 27, 2019 2:06 AM CST
Once in 100 years or even once in 500 years, neither is a very long record when compared to geological time, but even those extremes in the available records do not directly point to man's foolishness as being the sole cause of these "changes" or extreme weather events. There are several different documented cycles determined from geological and historic records that some researchers indicate will be simultaneously peaking to create "the perfect storm" or, more precisely, a period of weather instability, with weather events going from one extreme to the other very quickly. Such rapid changes, especially in temperature, cause severe weather in many forms.

"Will we really wait for food production to be catastrophically affected before we act?"

History shows that governments tend to be concerned more with survival of the government itself (or, more specifically, the survival of the individuals at the upper echelons of the government) than with the survival of the common citizens, so to depend upon the government to provide for the common citizen would not be recommended. Even when a government is functioning at what is presumed to be normal operational standing, the bureaucracy is too large to move decisively and effectively. (Examples: 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina)

So, aside from doing what you think may help alieve the circumstances, it would be best for you to be able to feed yourself by growing your own food in case of potential future food shortages. In Holland, in a time of food shortages and famine, they survived by eating their tulip bulbs! Who says your flower garden can't feed you?! Shrug!

Radly
"He who says his plants are always bigger & better than anyone else's and his grass, greener, is likely feeding them manure, like he's feeding you." ~Radly

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