Daylilies forum: Parent plants for branching

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Name: Will Currie
Hoke co NC (Zone 8a)
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UncleWill
Feb 17, 2019 8:08 PM CST
I've been thinking of what direction I want to go with my hybridization attempts. As a foundation for the bloom type and quantity I want a plant with good, well spaced branching will be necessary to prevent crowded misshaped blooms. Can anyone recommend a good parent plant that is prone to passing this trait on to their children?
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Feb 17, 2019 8:28 PM CST
Hoping some of the hybridizers with loads of experience will jump in here, I know that has to be a desirable trait for so many programs. It is easy to find plants that have a high branch number, but finding a plant that has great branching qualities and passing those down to their seedlings is something only known by experience.
If we don't get many responses I will ask at my next club meeting, and ask others to do so also and report back here what you find, Please?
Name: Diana
Lincoln, NE (Zone 5b)
Daylilies Region: Nebraska Organic Gardener Dog Lover Bookworm
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ShakespearesGarden
Feb 17, 2019 8:35 PM CST
Will, I'm nearly as new at this as you are. I'll be watching also : )

Might see about the database though, too...
Scout's motto: Be Prepared...
Name: Karen
Southeast PA (Zone 6b)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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kousa
Feb 17, 2019 8:37 PM CST
Check out Judy Davisson's daylilies. Her new daylilies have awesome branching! She posts both the pics of the branching and buds and a close up of the flowers. My favorite is Farm Girls but it is sold out. I hope to acquire this daylily in the future.

http://www.picturetrail.com/sf...

Fred Manning also has some great branching daylilies! He also posts pics of branching and closeup bloom. Here is his website:
http://www.daylilyplace.net/63...

Luckily, I got this daylily before it was sold out. It has very nice branching too.
[Last edited by kousa - Feb 17, 2019 8:41 PM (+)]
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Name: Tim
West Chicago, IL (Zone 5a)
Daylilies Native Plants and Wildflowers Vegetable Grower
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Lyshack
Feb 17, 2019 9:27 PM CST
Hey Will, do you have a focus on your hybridizing? Are you looking at Tets or Dips or both? Unusual Forms, or more traditional or round shapes?

I'm not sure I have an answer for you anyway, but maybe if we can narrow it down someone will give out a secret.

Name: Chris Massengill
Upper East Tennessee, Bluff Ci (Zone 6b)
Clmasse
Feb 17, 2019 10:04 PM CST
Im going to highly recommend these daylilies for branching

Last Fool Standing (8 way branching at my house)
Bombay Silk
Great Goodness Gracious
Heavenly Angel Ice
Drums Along the Mohawk
Strawberry Candy
Becky Adams


Name: Sue Petruske
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
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petruske
Feb 18, 2019 12:46 AM CST
This forum gave me an idea...I went through all my daylilies (254) and looked up the branching and bud counts. Many did not show it. But here is the list of the ones that did. I plugged them info into my PlantStep program, these are screen shots of that. Listings show branching and bud count.
2-way branching:
Thumb of 2019-02-18/petruske/4d91ee

3-way branching:
Thumb of 2019-02-18/petruske/01471e

4-way branching:
Thumb of 2019-02-18/petruske/a40565

5-way branching:
Thumb of 2019-02-18/petruske/487de5

6 and 8 way branching:
Thumb of 2019-02-18/petruske/1b3958

THIS is going to help me to choose what I want to use in my hybridizing program. Hurray! Thanks for your question Will. Made my brain think a little.

[Last edited by petruske - Feb 18, 2019 12:47 AM (+)]
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Name: Nikki
Yorkshire, UK (Zone 8a)
LA name-Maelstrom
Dog Lover Cat Lover Rabbit Keeper Container Gardener
Scatterbrain
Feb 18, 2019 4:56 AM CST
Would this one be any good, Uncle Will

Threshold of a Dream (Paul Owen, Slightly Different Nursery)
Thumb of 2019-02-18/Scatterbrain/79c2fe


Thumb of 2019-02-18/Scatterbrain/b85bfb

[Last edited by Scatterbrain - Feb 18, 2019 5:00 AM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Feb 18, 2019 7:33 AM CST
How many branches would be necessary to display all the buds on a plant and not have them so bunched together that they crowd each other and don't allow enough room for all the blooms to fully open? Well, of course that depends on the number of buds, and the size of the blooms, etc.
What is the purpose of having a huge number of buds and branches? Is it to have a long season of bloom from that one plant? Is that the only way to accomplish that goal? How about a plant that sends up a series of rebloom scapes, maybe three or four times a season? Now imagine combining all those traits?
Not picking on 'Threshold of a Dream ', it is a beautiful plant and might make a great choice for increasing buds and branches, but I see it has no child plants listed in the database, so we don't know how well it would pass those desired traits down. So I tried a way to bring up the number of child plants in a search, no luck so far. Anyone able to search just by the number of child plants registered ? I like to look at the child plants and see how the branching numbers compare with the parent plants. The same for bloom size, etc. My mind gets tired there is so much to consider.
Name: Nikki
Yorkshire, UK (Zone 8a)
LA name-Maelstrom
Dog Lover Cat Lover Rabbit Keeper Container Gardener
Scatterbrain
Feb 18, 2019 7:53 AM CST
Seedfork said:How many branches would be necessary to display all the buds on a plant and not have them so bunched together that they crowd each other and don't allow enough room for all the blooms to fully open? Well, of course that depends on the number of buds, and the size of the blooms, etc.
What is the purpose of having a huge number of buds and branches? Is it to have a long season of bloom from that one plant? Is that the only way to accomplish that goal? How about a plant that sends up a series of rebloom scapes, maybe three or four times a season? Now imagine combining all those traits?
Not picking on 'Threshold of a Dream ', it is a beautiful plant and might make a great choice for increasing buds and branches, but I see it has no child plants listed in the database, so we don't know how well it would pass those desired traits down. So I tried a way to bring up the number of child plants in a search, no luck so far. Anyone able to search just by the number of child plants registered ? I like to look at the child plants and see how the branching numbers compare with the parent plants. The same for bloom size, etc. My mind gets tired there is so much to consider.



Good points, Larry,

As you know, I'm new to this so just pointed it out as one possibly to consider as according to the breeders website it reblooms and has decent branching. Can't remember if it states who the parent plants are, maybe consider using the parents of a daylily with good branching instead of the plant itself, or can you breed a good branching one back to one of its parent plants, or maybe that might be too close a mating? Maurice should be able to advise.

Don't know if 'Threashold' is a good breeding plant or not as I got it new last year and it hasn't bloomed yet but it should be prety hardy as I got it in Britain and they don't sell them here until they have been trialled in our climate. Was a lot cheaper in Britain though than on the breeders site! 🤣
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Region: Alabama
Image
Seedfork
Feb 18, 2019 8:24 AM CST
This thread reminded me of a series of articles taken from the Daylily Journal, written by Oscie B. Whatley, Jr.
This paragraph seems appropriate here:
"We hear so much about certain cultivars being good parents and wonder what it means. When this tag is put on a variety, it should refer to an identification of dominant and recessive characteristics displayed in its seedlings from various crosses. The introducer probably had excellent results with certain line crosses and, for him, it was a good parent. It's a mistake to assume the dominant/ recessive traits can be applied to all crosses; in fact, it's highly unusual for it to work that way on many different outcrosses. Don't pass over what is declared and verified as a good parent, but the best parent you will ever discover will be your own line."
I am reading the articles again now and enjoying it even more now after a few more years of growing daylilies.
http://oldsite.daylilies.org/W...
Name: Julie
Roanoke, VA (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Region: Virginia Photo Contest Winner: 2015 Heucheras Cat Lover Hummingbirder
Clematis Lilies Birds Garden Art Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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floota
Feb 18, 2019 9:04 AM CST
If you're working with diploids, you might look at Woodhenge Gardens. Margo's Amethyst Tears and Jims Ocean Spirit and Out of Sane quickly come to mind as having exemplary plant habits and what we exhibition judges call "show scapes. ". They specifically breed for good plants and have many plants with well placed buds. Judy Davissons plants are top notch if you're working with tets as stated above.
[Last edited by floota - Feb 18, 2019 11:09 AM (+)]
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Name: Sue Petruske
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
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petruske
Feb 18, 2019 10:00 AM CST
Seedfork said:This thread reminded me of a series of articles taken from the Daylily Journal, written by Oscie B. Whatley, Jr.

I am reading the articles again now and enjoying it even more now after a few more years of growing daylilies.
http://oldsite.daylilies.org/W...


This is a GREAT article. Gives one a lot to consider. And I'm only up to Part 4 so far. Thanks Larry. I tip my hat to you.

I already realize that I fall into this category: FILO (Falling in Love Obsession) Trying real hard to resist matching a pretty face to a pretty face. Lovey dubby
Name: Nikki
Yorkshire, UK (Zone 8a)
LA name-Maelstrom
Dog Lover Cat Lover Rabbit Keeper Container Gardener
Scatterbrain
Feb 18, 2019 10:55 AM CST
floota said:If you're working with diploids, you might look at Woodhenge Gardens. Margo's Amethyst Tears and Jims Ocean Spirit and Out of Sane quickly come to mind as having exemplary plant habits and what we exhibition judges call "show scapes. ". They specifically breed for good plants and have many plants with well placed buds. Judy Davissons plants are top notch if you're working with test, as stated above.



Just been to the website to have a look, OMG----Brother Coal , be still my Gothic heart Lovey dubby Lovey dubby Lovey dubby

BROTHER COAL
Thumb of 2019-02-18/Scatterbrain/c458ee


Edited to add picture.

[Last edited by Scatterbrain - Feb 18, 2019 11:05 AM (+)]
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Name: Karen
Southeast PA (Zone 6b)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Image
kousa
Feb 18, 2019 7:22 PM CST
I have never been able to match the number of branching from my own garden to those posted by the hybridizers. I am sure their better amended soil, regular fertilizer regimen, and constant moisture have something to do with this. Does anyone else experience this in their garden too?
Name: Will Currie
Hoke co NC (Zone 8a)
Image
UncleWill
Feb 18, 2019 7:39 PM CST
Lyshack/ I'm just beginning my journey so I haven't developed a clear set of goals yet. I know I like the rounded shape, "fruity" colors (tangerine, peach, apricot, etc), picotee edges are alluring but I also
Like crisply colored eyes and those two traits seldom mix well, at least in lilies I can afford.

Importantly I also know what I don't like so much. Flowers that don't open well are a big no go for me, as are colors that look faded or blotchy so I tend to avoid dark and mauve flowers.

Honestly I don't know the difference between dips and tets beyond gene count. I really need to educate myself on the subject.

Karen/ great link, glad you got the DL before it sold out!

Chris/ thanks for the recommendations! Thank You!

Sue/ thanks for sharing your data! I'm sure it will be a big help. I tip my hat to you. Thank You!

Nikki/ what a beautiful plant! That's the sort of clump I would like to share with the world.

Larry/ you've made some strong points, I'll have to take all that you said into consideration. Thanks for the link, I needed that.

Julie/thank you, again, obviously I've got to put a lot more thought into the dip/ tet question.

Name: Tim
West Chicago, IL (Zone 5a)
Daylilies Native Plants and Wildflowers Vegetable Grower
Image
Lyshack
Feb 18, 2019 8:46 PM CST
Will, I think the conventional wisdom is you'll have the most success crossing Dips with Dips and Tets with Tets. That's really about all you need to know.

I'm plenty new at this, too, but with apologies to those here who really know this history, here is my newby perspective on Dips and Tets.

Dips were the original DL ploidy. Tets came in around the late 50's and 60's, I think. At first, the DL purists didn't like Tets. Tet pioneers, some of them from my area around Chicago, kept developing new Tets. For a while, it was like you had to pick a side. Dip purist or Tet progressive. ...sounds familiar.

However, having double the chromosomes allows Tets to have more color variation and faster development. So more recently, Tets were the hot DL. But there are plenty of hybridizers that continue to develop Dips, including George Doorakian, who created a very popular Dip called Rose F. Kennedy, that from my perspective was a game changer that has led to a resurgence in Dips. There wasn't really anything like it from the Tet side. In fact, Tet hybridizers were paying big dollars for a Rose F Kennedy that had gone through the process to convert it from a Dip to a Tet.

Maybe it's just because I'm newer at this, but it seems like now, anything goes. I like tets. My favorite hybridizer is Judy Davisson who makes tets just the way I like 'em, big, beautiful, and occasionally with great watermarks. I also enjoy having older Tets from the local pioneers like Brother Charles Reckamp (from nearby Techny, Illinois), Robert Griesbach, and James Marsh in my garden, but I still have maybe 30% dips.

If I were a professional hybridizer, I might be more inclined to focus on one or the other. I'm just a hobbyist, though. So I can pretty much do whatever makes me happy.

Name: Davi (Judy) Davisson
Sherrills Ford, NC (Zone 7a)
Davi
Feb 19, 2019 9:03 AM CST
Thanks, Larry, for posting the link to the Whatley articles. I read them over and over again as a beginning hybridizer back in the early 1990's. They contain so much "no nonsense" wisdom and I will always be indebted to Oscie Whatley for sharing his thoughts and providing me with guidelines that have served me well.

I love what he had to say about competition:
"Competition. If a contestant wants to win a race he should be the best in that race. A beginner would be wise to find a unique, less competitive race and learn some techniques before tackling the heavily populated treasure hunts."

And his "how to" on how to build a line without breaking the bank was spot on. I enjoyed reading the articles again after so many years and would recommend that every beginner read every word multiple times!
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Region: Alabama
Image
Seedfork
Feb 19, 2019 10:16 AM CST
My favorite sentence in the article was " yet it took many years to understand what they had outright told me." I find myself feeling like this D'Oh! at times and thinking "oh, now I see what they meant".
Name: Will Currie
Hoke co NC (Zone 8a)
Image
UncleWill
Feb 19, 2019 3:51 PM CST
I'm still trying to wrap my head around everything that's in this article after a couple readings. I have a feeling I'll be coming back to it again and again.

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