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May 13, 2019 11:16 AM CST
Zone 9, Sunset Zone 9 (Zone 9b)
Roses
Ray_Gun said:Good luck Cinta! A little TLC and I'm sure they'll be fine. I ordered 3 Peace HT's from Heirloom last year and they came looking just like yours; small and a little spindly. They still managed to have a few blooms but not a ton of growth. This year they're filling out more but still very short. I'm confident they'll be ok but it might be a couple of seasons yet. I don't think I'll order from them again. I got 12 own root roses from Jackson Perkins this year and they were much bigger and had more canes compared to what Heirloom sent so maybe they hold onto them longer before they sell.


The roses from Heirloom are on own root. They are usually sold as "bands," and are much smaller than the grafted roses that J and P sells. It is lovely not to have to deal with the root stock of grafted roses. Here is what Heirloom states about own root roses
"Own Root Roses. All roses shipped and sold from Heirloom Roses are grown on their own roots. Own root roses provide more profuse blooms, are more winter hardy, disease resistant, and there is no graft to contend with. Our commitment to quality ensures that you'll always know what to expect when you order from us.

Own Root Roses Provide the Following:

Healthier Plants
More disease resistant
More Blooms
True to Type
No Virus
More Winter Hardy
Long Life
No Root Stock Suckers
https://www.heirloomroses.com/....

Between three to five years, own root roses will "catch up" with grafted roses.
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May 13, 2019 1:16 PM CST
Long Island, New York, USA (Zone 7a)
Region: New York Roses
@mustbnuts Sorry I wasn't clear. The roses I got from JP this year are all own root hence the comparison to Heirloom's own roots. I'm still way too new to rose gardening to decide if I prefer grafted or own root. Shrug!
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May 13, 2019 1:25 PM CST
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Irises Lilies Roses Region: Southwest Gardening
What is true is that roses that are easy to establish on their own roots are often extraordinarily good roses for precisely the reasons cited by Heirloom roses. That's why so many roses bred before budding and grafting were in common use are such good garden roses.

The problem is that most hybrid tea roses require perfect soil and air conditions to grow on their own roots. They were bred and propagated originally assuming that every plant would be on a different rootstock.

Even people who grow roses in the best zipcode in the nation for growing those HT roses will tell you that HT roses on their own roots can be tricky. One of the reasons that grafted roses exist is that a lot of roses simply don't do well on their own roots; they lack the vigor that is required to grow and overcome any adverse conditions above or below the soil line. What this means for a gardener who does not live precisely 71 miles from the Pacific Ocean is this: if you want to be pretty sure a rose establishes and grows well, and if the rose was bred at any time between (something like) 1910 and 1990, you should start out assuming it will only grow in you garden if it is budded or grafted onto a more vigorous rootstock: Dr Huey, R. multiflora, for example.

The problem extends well beyond HT roses. In every class there are at least a few cultivars with the suitable set of qualities to grow on their own roots, but they are almost always in the minority. Some of these are in the Heirloom Roses catalogue.

I don't wish to knock Heirloom too badly because they have done the rose collecting public a monumentally great service by keeping such an extensive catalogue in commerce. But if you plant one of their beautifully grown gallon HT roses and it fails, remember that part of the reason is probably that it is on its own roots.
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
Last edited by Steve812 May 14, 2019 11:44 AM Icon for preview
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May 13, 2019 1:32 PM CST
Long Island, New York, USA (Zone 7a)
Region: New York Roses
That makes sense. And to be sure, my Lincoln's that are grafted are putting out tons of growth in their second year compared to my own root Peaces.
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May 13, 2019 2:10 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
Heirloom is full of hype, to put it mildly. Most of these claims are preposterous:

"Own Root Roses. All roses shipped and sold from Heirloom Roses are grown on their own roots. Own root roses provide more profuse blooms, are more winter hardy, disease resistant, and there is no graft to contend with. Our commitment to quality ensures that you'll always know what to expect when you order from us.

Own Root Roses Provide the Following:

Healthier Plants
More disease resistant
More Blooms
True to Type
No Virus
More Winter Hardy
Long Life
No Root Stock Suckers
https://www.heirloomroses.com/...

"Healthier plants...More disease resistant...More blooms"? Why and how? If a particular rose needs grafting to grow vigorously, how could it be healthier and more floriferous on its own roots? As for disease resistance, rose cultivars either are or aren't disease resistant, and the type of graft or lack of graft has nothing to do with it. Dr. Huey, a common rootstock, is ridiculously susceptible to powdery mildew in my garden when it's growing wild and free, for example, but the roses grafted onto it never exhibit powdery mildew.

"True to type"? This makes no sense unless the buds or other grafting material are taken from the wrong scion. A bud (for grafting) and a cutting (for own-root production) are equally reliable type-wise.

"No virus"? Absolutely false. Growing a cutting from a virused rose will produce a virused own-root rose.

"More winter hardy"? Only in one sense: If you're growing roses in a zone cold enough to kill multiflora or Dr. Huey, the own-root rose will be more hardy, but only if the own-root cultivar is hardier than the rootstock. Otherwise, hardiness has no connection to the type of graft or lack of graft. Each rose cultivar is hardy only to a certain extent and this has nothing to do with grafting. If you're growing a rose hardy to zone 7 in your zone 4 garden, it will not survive the winter unprotected, regardless of its rootstock or lack of rootstock.

"Long life"? Again, nothing but hype. Yes, some own-root roses will survive for centuries in cemeteries or in the wild, but are we looking for centuries of growth? I can only cite anecdotal evidence in this case, but the grafted President Herbert Hoover in my garden is more than 80 years old. In the fear of losing it, I have tried to buy replacements for it several times. They have been own-root roses because no one grafts this rose anymore, and all of the own-root "replacements" have died in the first two or three years. If a rose needs a rootstock for vigor, it will not live longer on its own roots.

"No root stock suckers"? At last, one claim that is true. This is less of a problem than you might imagine, however. I have grown hundreds and hundreds of grafted roses in my garden, and only 5 or 6 have ever produced rootstock suckers.
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May 13, 2019 3:43 PM CST
Name: Rosemary
Sacramento, CA (Zone 9b)
This thread is really interesting to me since I've been thinking about ordering from Heirloom Roses. I live in zone 9b and out of the 20 or so roses I planted 25 or so years ago, 5-6 have suckers so the above was enlightening and surprising to read about only 5-6 out of hundreds suckering in Zuzu's garden. Wonder why some sucker and some don't?! My suckering roses: Cl. Cecille Brunner, Kings Ransom, Sweet Surrender, Tropicana, Double Delight, and Fragrant Cloud (tree rose).

One thing that has annoyed and disappointed me the past year is searching for Tropicana. None of the new ones I've seen match my original ones from 18-25 years ago. They are lighter orange and not as fragrant. I did end up buying one. I happened to see a Weeks Roses representative last Sat. at an ACE store and asked him about it and he said sometimes that happens over time as several buds are taken from a cane that might be a little different, and over time there is a change, and suggested I replace it with Sedona since I'm wanting to use it for dried red roses in wreathmaking (I have Chrysler Imperial, Mr. Lincoln and Papa Meilland, but they dry too dark to almost black, so I did get Sundowner and Cl. America this Feb., and I will see how they look dried).

I saw something similar with Sweet Surrender I'm interested in replacing since it's down to 1 cane and it's been one of my favorites. I found one at Green Acres but it was more of a peach rather than pink color, the flower was shaped like a classic HT rather than the many-petaled, flat, old rose type, and the fragrance was still strong but completely different so I didn't get it. I guess one way to get a true clone is to try to get a cutting and propagate it myself. And looking at the size of Rogue Valley's bands, (where I ordered Saratoga to replace one labeled such but had died, and receiving a doubtful-looking "twig" that is now thriving), the smallest cutting still has great potential!

I am enjoying this forum and expanding my knowledge of rose care! Thank You!
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May 13, 2019 5:22 PM CST
PNW (Zone 8b)
I have bought around 50 roses since last fall, and twenty of them are from Heirloom. Though they are more expensive, the reason I choose them mostly is the gallon size and free shipping. IMO, their quality is above average, but just like Steve and Zuzu said, only the roses that are vigorous on their own roots could attain the best.

A interesting observation is that their "clearance" roses (one for $19 or $20) usually have better quality. I think it's possible that these roses have been stored for a longer time than the "usual" roses. In fact, I bought many of them, and they look like much better than others from Heirloom. Thus, when the price is reasonable plus free shipping, it's a good deal for me. LOL.
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May 13, 2019 6:01 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
reh0622, I actually have five of the six of the roses you have that are suckering, but mine have never sent up any suckers. I think it depends on a lot of things, but mainly on the skill of the person grafting the rose and the vigilance of the nursery selling the rose. Last year I bought one of the "bargain" mixes from Breck's on sale and never even bothered to plant the roses. When they arrived, there were fresh canes growing all along the rootstock below the graft. The nursery sent them out in that state without making any effort to eliminate the suckers.

You're right that the original Tropicana is hard to find. I once had a neighbor who decided she hated the color and gave me all of hers. They're more than 50 years old, so they're the right ones.

Aerith, I think you're right about the clearance roses. I've noticed the same thing about the ones Roses Unlimited puts on sale each year in late May or early June. I think they're outgrowing their containers, so the nursery would rather sell them at a discount than go to the trouble of repotting them in larger containers.
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May 13, 2019 11:48 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: aud/odd
Pennsylvania (Zone 6b)
Garden Ideas: Level 1
It is sad that I am unable to purchase roses locally other than body bags and knockouts. I was attempting the own root to see if they would survive and their prices are high enough I thought they would be worth a try.

On Dave's garden someone did mention they were better under previous owner. This may be a problem of new owners wanting to make more money vs quality.
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May 13, 2019 11:58 PM CST
SW Ohio River Valley (Zone 6b)
Cinta, I have never purchased from heirloom so I cannot comment on their quality. However there are many many online places that sell own root roses for very reasonable prices. Sometimes they are small and you may have to Baby them for a while but if you're willing to do that you can get some fabulous roses. Others such as Antique Rose Emporium have huge roses. I buy them during their yearly sale when there is free shipping. High Country roses also has fabulous sales and has a wonderful gift certificate with a discount at Thanksgiving. I bought six roses including shipping and it came to $75. I don't know how one can beat that and the plants were wonderful!
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May 14, 2019 7:04 AM CST
Zone 9, Sunset Zone 9 (Zone 9b)
Roses
I too have had mixed results with roses from Heirloom. They seem to be better now than a couple of years ago. I have watched J and P go down hill and will never order from them again. Half dead plants and no response from the company.

As Vapor stated, some of the smaller companies are great. Hummingbird Roses, Burlington Nursery, Northland Rosariam have all sent me beautiful plants. Burling's can be small but they have all survived and thrived. I also have had good luck with Rogue Valley. They did send me a mislabled plant but once they saw my picture of it, they immediately replaced it with the correct one. The rest of them have been fine. Roses Unlimited also has sent me great plants. DA has also sent me great plants as well (they were big!).

I had to get some extra's couplings for my drip system yesterday and wandered through Home Depot's "rose" section. The plants in pots looked awful! Virtually no selection to speak of whatsoever. Just a lot of Oklahoma's with bent canes. Ugh! I felt so bad for the roses. I was hoping to come across a Mr. Lincoln (it seemed that you had a choice of either a red or a yellow rose--no other colors were there). I wanted to give him a sniff as I don't think I have smelled him before. No Mr. Lincoln, unfortunately.
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May 14, 2019 12:03 PM CST
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Irises Lilies Roses Region: Southwest Gardening
I've had the same experience with 'sale' roses doing better. But only in spring.

It's a slight exaggeration, but I've begun thinking that the week of April 22 is the only good week of the year to have roses shipped to my address. Hazards at other times (frost/drought, both simultaneously) are too great.

When I purchase own-root roses in fall, suppliers strip the plants of leaves because... that's just their practice for all roses. But before the new leaves harden off, frost strikes. Roses that go through freeze/thaw cycling with aplomb (Mme A Carriere, or the multiflora climber Wedding Day might be examples) can survive this. Most others give up long before Christmas and are never seen again.

By contrast, those planted in spring will more typically wait the twentieth or thirtieth spring freeze/thaw cycle the following year to finally die convincingly, losing their last trace of life with process of canes turning brown and brittle (even when the soil is moist) completing in early April. The chance of success is not that high, but it is quite a lot higher than for fall planted roses, here.
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
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May 14, 2019 5:47 PM CST
Name: Matt
Florida Panhandle (Zone 8b)
Suggestion: if you want an excellent plant of Peace or Chicago Peace order from k&m roses or Nelson's Florida Roses. I purchased both. (One from Nelson's and one from K&M) They're grafted onto R. Fortuniana and perform very well even in hot humid disease city Florida. I do use fungicide at about 14 days intervals March-October and Fertilize with Chicken Manure, magnesium and periodic micronutrients. I also make sure my pH is between 6 and 6.5. This year I have slacked off and only made 2 applications so far of Chlorothalonil/Propaconizole tank mix. 2 applications in 2019 only and I'm disease free. About to make a Mancozeb application. A preventative spray program does not have to be intense to be effective. Just rotate chemicals and don't over do it.
Last edited by MJOrwat May 14, 2019 5:49 PM Icon for preview
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May 14, 2019 5:55 PM CST
Name: Matt
Florida Panhandle (Zone 8b)
reh0622 said:

One thing that has annoyed and disappointed me the past year is searching for Tropicana. None of the new ones I've seen match my original ones from 18-25 years ago. They are lighter orange and not as fragrant. I did end up buying one. I happened to see a Weeks Roses representative last Sat. at an ACE store and asked him about it and he said sometimes that happens over time as several buds are taken from a cane that might be a little different, and over time there is a change:
. I found the true Tropicana at Tallahassee Nurseries in the Florida Panhandle. They sell Nelson' Florida Roses on R. Fortuniana and it was just like the one my Aunt grew in the 1980s
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May 3, 2020 2:21 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: aud/odd
Pennsylvania (Zone 6b)
Garden Ideas: Level 1
One year later I am back to report, because I do not like it when someone post and you do not know what happened.

We had a mild winter not as cold and not as much rain then freeze. All are showing proof of life. I am jumping for joy. So joy jump with me. Hurray! I will be sure to post a pick when I see flowers.
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May 3, 2020 4:39 PM CST
Name: seil
St Clair Shores, MI (Zone 6a)
Garden Photography Region: Michigan Roses
Congratulations, Cinta! That's wonderful news! I knew you could do it. Awaiting pictures!
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May 4, 2020 8:46 AM CST
Zone 9, Sunset Zone 9 (Zone 9b)
Roses
Whooo Hooooo! Congrats! So glad you posted again. I too can't wait to see pictures!
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May 22, 2020 12:43 PM CST
Long Island, New York, USA (Zone 7a)
Region: New York Roses
Fantastic!
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May 22, 2020 1:24 PM CST
Name: Dennis Brown
The Big Island, Hawaii
There are many great growers out there, Heirloom is not one of them. Their roses are overpriced and customer service leaves something to be desired. I have purchased roses from Northland Rosarium, David Austin and Burlington. You can't go wrong with these nurseries.
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May 27, 2020 8:02 AM CST
Zone 9, Sunset Zone 9 (Zone 9b)
Roses
Northland is having some great sales this past week. I agree Dennis about your choices of nurseries. I do like Reverence for Roses too as well as Freedom Gardens, but I don't know if they ship to Hawaii.

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