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Name: Monica Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b) Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather        krancmm Jun 4, 2012 10:37 AM CST |
I've noticed that at least some seed series are being listed as cultivars. Is that the correct way?  DB example: Angelonia 'Serena Mixed'. Wouldn't it be Angelonia angustifolia as genus/species, then Series Serena™ (by PanAmerican Seeds). There are individual colors which aren't really cultivars (are they?), as well as a mix. If so, would all the individual colors be listed in the Series (Serena™ Purple, Serena™ White, Serena™ Mixed); or would multiple colors be selected in the Flower Color field? If colors go in the Flower Color field, I'd propose a checkbox under flower color for "color mix" or "color mixed". I know there's an "other" checkbox but that's just more typing. I've been struggling with this in my own database as well, so any direction by seed specialists would be welcome. Monica |
Name: Evan Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)             |
 Hi Monica, We had a conversation about this subject here: The thread "Protocol for plant series" in Plant Database forum I have to reread it occasionally to remind me of what's what and even then I admit to confusion. As it's a name related item I've wondered if it shouldn't be somehow incorporated into the name area instead of down at the bottom. Evan |
Name: Monica Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b) Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather krancmm Jun 4, 2012 7:25 PM CST |
| Whew, thanks Evan for the link… I've had to sit down too, ponder and do some research. Short reponse: At least for seeds, I think the series info goes in both places. From what I've read the series is typically treated as part of the cultivar name for seeds. Essay response: Trademarks, Registered, Patents and Protection Dave made an interesting comment in that thread about trademarks requiring a cultivar name. After researching the patent and trademark office website, I discovered that only patents, registered trademarks and Plant Variety Protection Act items require a cultivar or series name. Anyone, literally anyone, can slap a ™ on a product without registering any info w/ the trademark office: "If you claim rights to use a mark, you may use the “TM” (trademark) or “SM” (service mark) designation to alert the public to your claim of ownership of the mark, regardless of whether you have filed an application with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO). However, you may only use the federal registration symbol “®” after the USPTO actually registers a mark, and not while an application is pending. You may only use the registration symbol with the mark on or in connection with the goods/services listed in the federal trademark registration." http://www.uspto.gov/trademark... Besides, or in additon to registration, seeds can have protection through the Plant Variety Protection Act. PanAm Seeds' info on Echinacea 'PowWow Wild Berry' states: "Protection Information : US7,982,110". That's the ultimate for seeds and allows big time law suits. Yet PanAm is also the breeder of Angelonia Serena series and only chose to slap a TM on it. What is a cultivar in seed terms MOBOT lists Angelonia angustifolia and says "Serena Series cultivars are new introductions that are particularly noteworthy because they may be grown from seed. ‘Serena Lavender’, ‘Serena Lavender Pink’, ‘Serena White’ and ‘Serena Purple’ feature flowers of the color described by the cultivar name." MOBOT ignores the TM completely, but calls each color a cultivar. So, it sounds as if the series name coupled with each color of a series is typically considered a cultivar, and needs to be entered separately if they're sold separately. I'd have to add Angelonia angustifolia 'Serena™ Lavender' and each of the other colors. Then at the bottom, the Series would be be listed again as Serena™. That's potentially a lot of data entry as some series have loads of separate colors.  Is there any way to duplicate a plant and details record when only a color name has to be changed?I had thought that just using "Mix", checking the appropriate colors and noting that colors are sold separately by some seed houses would work, but then I noticed that quite a few series have color names like "Fire" or "Bronze" so they do need to be listed separately. For any seeds covered by the Plant Variety Protection Act, I'd just add the number in the "Other" field of seed starting. Sorry for the excess verbiage... Monica |
Name: Evan Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a) |
Monica you're a marvel and a force.  Evan |
Name: Monica Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b) Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather krancmm Jun 4, 2012 8:55 PM CST |
 Just a world class snoop...just wait, I'm putting together a list of tropicals that go naturally dormant for you northern tropical growers. See what I mean?  Monica |
Name: Evan Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a) |
Can't wait.  Evan |
Name: Dave Whitinger Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)            |
| This is a really interesting problem that will not be solved overnight. I do believe, however, that we here at ATP have an opportunity to bring light to the darkness that currently surrounds this issue. I believe there is no place on the internet where you can definitely look up plants with their real and proper names, now that the tradenames issue is so out of control. It is something that I spend a great deal of time contemplating, and I am confident that WE will be the ones that really get this issue resolved and in doing so, we will be doing a great service to the gardening industry. krancmm said:Is there any way to duplicate a plant and details record when only a color name has to be changed? Not at the moment, but such a functionality would not be very difficult. I can create a "Clone an entry" tool that will create a new plant with all the same data as the original one. |
Name: Monica Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b) Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather krancmm Jun 6, 2012 1:07 PM CST |
| Again, here comes as essay rather than a sound bite. Gad zooks, it's even worse than I thought. I just looked at a grower's seed catalog and picked Impatiens walleriana. It listed Impreza™ Hybrid Series. Offerings included Cherry Splash, South Beach Mix, Pink Splash, and Mix. Then I googled Impreza and found that PanAmerican Seeds was the breeder. Their website http://www.panamseed.com/serie... lists 18 varieties [botanical sic] - individual colors and specialty mixes. And each "variety" (except for mixes) has a cultivar name!!! Only in one place that I found accidentally does BallHort (PanAm's partner) list all the cultivar names, so Cherry Splash is really 'PAS774965' However, if you go to PamAm or BallHort directly and look up the series, each "variety" shows as 'PAS774961' Neither PamAm nor BallHort list it as a hybrid, just Impatiens walleriana. So not only can we not trust any seed catalog, we can't even trust the breeder to give the correct info on their sites. WE have a lot of work to sort this out; requires an ghastly amount of research and possible contacts with the breeders. Most Sublime and Omnipotent ATP Dave, Cloning or duplicating plant names and details would be a life saver . I'd really like it if it were possible to do both the plant name and the details together for approval, especially for seeds, but even for plants in a series (like Suntory's SunParasol or Proven Winners' Scooter) . Otherwise, I'm afraid that it would get terribly confusing (at least for me) to make sure that the right details went with the plant name if I were doing a bunch together.On another topic, going back to Evan's Goldraush, there may need to be more than one trade name line. There is already the possibility for listing multiple cultivars (which is botanically impossible), but no way to list multiple trade names which is possible. Putting the extra trade names in the common name field isn't really the same as having Coleus as a common name. Could the Trade Name field be renamed to Sold As with the ability to add multiple lines? Monica |
Name: Dave Whitinger Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b) |
| I'll put together a clone tool, but I'd prefer to make some other architectural changes to the system before I make the cloning tool, lest I find myself having to rewrite the tool shortly after creating it. |
Name: Monica Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b) Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather krancmm Jun 8, 2012 1:42 PM CST |
dave said:I'll put together a clone tool, but I'd prefer to make some other architectural changes to the system before I make the cloning tool, lest I find myself having to rewrite the tool shortly after creating it. ...to which someone is bound to take exception given the strong personalities of members. Look forward to it when it's available. Thanks. Monica |
Name: Dave Whitinger Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b) |
krancmm said:...to which someone is bound to take exception given the strong personalities of members. I wouldn't have it any other way.  |
Name: woofie NE WA (Zone 5a)           woofie Jun 9, 2012 2:54 PM CST |
Does that mean I can throw tantrums and pout?  I do love the idea of a clone tool; be nice to be able to duplicate the data details instead of having to enter each item separately because the flower is a different color! Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid. |
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