Plant Database forum: Seed Series

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Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
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krancmm
Jun 4, 2012 10:37 AM CST
I've noticed that at least some seed series are being listed as cultivars. Is that the correct way? Confused

DB example: Angelonia 'Serena Mixed'. Wouldn't it be Angelonia angustifolia as genus/species, then Series Serena™ (by PanAmerican Seeds). There are individual colors which aren't really cultivars (are they?), as well as a mix.

If so, would all the individual colors be listed in the Series (Serena™ Purple, Serena™ White, Serena™ Mixed); or would multiple colors be selected in the Flower Color field?

If colors go in the Flower Color field, I'd propose a checkbox under flower color for "color mix" or "color mixed". I know there's an "other" checkbox but that's just more typing.

I've been struggling with this in my own database as well, so any direction by seed specialists would be welcome.
Monica
[Last edited by krancmm - Jun 4, 2012 12:49 PM (+)]
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Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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eclayne
Jun 4, 2012 2:13 PM CST

Plants Admin

I'm all ears!
Hi Monica,
We had a conversation about this subject here: The thread "Protocol for plant series" in Plant Database forum
I have to reread it occasionally to remind me of what's what and even then I admit to confusion. As it's a name related item I've wondered if it shouldn't be somehow incorporated into the name area instead of down at the bottom.
Evan
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
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krancmm
Jun 4, 2012 7:25 PM CST
Whew, thanks Evan for the link… I've had to sit down too, ponder and do some research.

Short reponse: At least for seeds, I think the series info goes in both places. From what I've read the series is typically treated as part of the cultivar name for seeds.

Essay response:
Trademarks, Registered, Patents and Protection
Dave made an interesting comment in that thread about trademarks requiring a cultivar name. After researching the patent and trademark office website, I discovered that only patents, registered trademarks and Plant Variety Protection Act items require a cultivar or series name. Anyone, literally anyone, can slap a ™ on a product without registering any info w/ the trademark office:

"If you claim rights to use a mark, you may use the “TM” (trademark) or “SM” (service mark) designation to alert the public to your claim of ownership of the mark, regardless of whether you have filed an application with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO). However, you may only use the federal registration symbol “®” after the USPTO actually registers a mark, and not while an application is pending. You may only use the registration symbol with the mark on or in connection with the goods/services listed in the federal trademark registration." http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/basics/BasicFacts_with_corre...

Besides, or in additon to registration, seeds can have protection through the Plant Variety Protection Act. PanAm Seeds' info on Echinacea 'PowWow Wild Berry' states: "Protection Information : US7,982,110". That's the ultimate for seeds and allows big time law suits. Yet PanAm is also the breeder of Angelonia Serena series and only chose to slap a TM on it.

What is a cultivar in seed terms
MOBOT lists Angelonia angustifolia and says "Serena Series cultivars are new introductions that are particularly noteworthy because they may be grown from seed. ‘Serena Lavender’, ‘Serena Lavender Pink’, ‘Serena White’ and ‘Serena Purple’ feature flowers of the color described by the cultivar name." MOBOT ignores the TM completely, but calls each color a cultivar.

So, it sounds as if the series name coupled with each color of a series is typically considered a cultivar, and needs to be entered separately if they're sold separately. I'd have to add Angelonia angustifolia 'Serena™ Lavender' and each of the other colors. Then at the bottom, the Series would be be listed again as Serena™.

That's potentially a lot of data entry as some series have loads of separate colors. Crying Is there any way to duplicate a plant and details record when only a color name has to be changed?

I had thought that just using "Mix", checking the appropriate colors and noting that colors are sold separately by some seed houses would work, but then I noticed that quite a few series have color names like "Fire" or "Bronze" so they do need to be listed separately.

For any seeds covered by the Plant Variety Protection Act, I'd just add the number in the "Other" field of seed starting.

Sorry for the excess verbiage...
Monica
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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eclayne
Jun 4, 2012 8:24 PM CST

Plants Admin

Monica you're a marvel and a force. Thumbs up Thumbs up
Evan
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
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krancmm
Jun 4, 2012 8:55 PM CST
I tip my hat to you. Just a world class snoop...just wait, I'm putting together a list of tropicals that go naturally dormant for you northern tropical growers. See what I mean? Big Grin
Monica
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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eclayne
Jun 4, 2012 9:19 PM CST

Plants Admin

Can't wait. nodding
Evan
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
Jun 6, 2012 10:59 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

This is a really interesting problem that will not be solved overnight. I do believe, however, that we here at ATP have an opportunity to bring light to the darkness that currently surrounds this issue. I believe there is no place on the internet where you can definitely look up plants with their real and proper names, now that the tradenames issue is so out of control.

It is something that I spend a great deal of time contemplating, and I am confident that WE will be the ones that really get this issue resolved and in doing so, we will be doing a great service to the gardening industry.

krancmm said:Is there any way to duplicate a plant and details record when only a color name has to be changed?


Not at the moment, but such a functionality would not be very difficult. I can create a "Clone an entry" tool that will create a new plant with all the same data as the original one.
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
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krancmm
Jun 6, 2012 1:07 PM CST
Again, here comes as essay rather than a sound bite.

Gad zooks, it's even worse than I thought. I just looked at a grower's seed catalog and picked Impatiens walleriana. It listed Impreza™ Hybrid Series. Offerings included Cherry Splash, South Beach Mix, Pink Splash, and Mix.

Then I googled Impreza and found that PanAmerican Seeds was the breeder. Their website http://www.panamseed.com/series_info.aspx?phid=0347061990248... lists 18 varieties [botanical sic] - individual colors and specialty mixes.

And each "variety" (except for mixes) has a cultivar name!!! Only in one place that I found accidentally does BallHort (PanAm's partner) list all the cultivar names, so Cherry Splash is really 'PAS774965' Crying However, if you go to PamAm or BallHort directly and look up the series, each "variety" shows as 'PAS774961' Crying Crying

Neither PamAm nor BallHort list it as a hybrid, just Impatiens walleriana.

So not only can we not trust any seed catalog, we can't even trust the breeder to give the correct info on their sites. WE have a lot of work to sort this out; requires an ghastly amount of research and possible contacts with the breeders.

Most Sublime and Omnipotent ATP Dave,
Cloning or duplicating plant names and details would be a life saver Thumbs up Thumbs up . I'd really like it if it were possible to do both the plant name and the details together for approval, especially for seeds, but even for plants in a series (like Suntory's SunParasol or Proven Winners' Scooter) . Otherwise, I'm afraid that it would get terribly confusing (at least for me) to make sure that the right details went with the plant name if I were doing a bunch together.

On another topic, going back to Evan's Goldraush, there may need to be more than one trade name line. There is already the possibility for listing multiple cultivars (which is botanically impossible), but no way to list multiple trade names which is possible. Putting the extra trade names in the common name field isn't really the same as having Coleus as a common name. Could the Trade Name field be renamed to Sold As with the ability to add multiple lines?


Monica
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
Jun 8, 2012 12:01 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

I'll put together a clone tool, but I'd prefer to make some other architectural changes to the system before I make the cloning tool, lest I find myself having to rewrite the tool shortly after creating it.
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
Image
krancmm
Jun 8, 2012 1:42 PM CST
dave said:I'll put together a clone tool, but I'd prefer to make some other architectural changes to the system before I make the cloning tool, lest I find myself having to rewrite the tool shortly after creating it.


...to which someone is bound to take exception given the strong personalities of members.

Look forward to it when it's available. Thanks. Thumbs up
Monica
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Beekeeper Garden Sages Avid Green Pages Reviewer Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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dave
Jun 8, 2012 1:47 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

krancmm said:...to which someone is bound to take exception given the strong personalities of members.


I wouldn't have it any other way. Smiling
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Garden Procrastinator Greenhouse Dragonflies Plays in the sandbox I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
The WITWIT Badge I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters Container Gardener Seed Starter
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woofie
Jun 9, 2012 2:54 PM CST
Does that mean I can throw tantrums and pout? Hilarious!

I do love the idea of a clone tool; be nice to be able to duplicate the data details instead of having to enter each item separately because the flower is a different color!
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.

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