Plant Database forum: Cultivar, Trade Name, Common Name, Synonym - Propose New Field "Also Sold As"

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Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
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krancmm
Jun 7, 2012 11:04 AM CST
Cultivar: My understanding of the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants (ICNCP, Cultivated Plant Code) is that there can be only one cultivar of a given plant. The registered cultivar name takes precedence to any other. Older plants (pre-the digital age) may have several cultivar names but the oldest takes precedence.

Trade Name: Given by the plant breeder, not in any way affiliated or controlled by the Cultivated Plant Code

Synonym: Basionyms, Invalid, Illegitimate, Unplaced, Synonyms - listed in The Plant List.org, ITIS or TROPICOS

Common Name: A non-scientific name that one or more people have chosen to give to a plant

There appears to be a gap. I threw Alocasia x amazonica 'Polly' in common names - it shouldn't be there. But it shouldn't be in the synonym list either and it certainly doesn't belong as a separate plant. Nor is it a cultivar (the correct name 'Poly' can be traced back to a breeder and date).

What I propose is a new field "Also Sold As" directly under Trade Name that would allow multiple entries for the various wild and whacky names under which a plant might be sold. It would need to be searchable.

Using Evan's Leucanthemum x superbum 'Leukal 01'; the Trade Name is Goldrausch, Also Sold As: Leucanthemum x superbum Gold Rush, Leucanthemum x superbum Goldrush, Leucanthemum maximum Goldrausch; Common Name: Shasta Daisy; Synonyms: Leucanthemum superbum, Chryanthemum... etc.

Just a proposal to ponder...



Monica
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
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pardalinum
Jun 7, 2012 11:21 AM CST
Thumbs up on that. I've used the comment field for explanation of multiple names but it is awkward and time consuming. In the meantime I use the cultivar fields with the accepted name as primary.
Name: Lin
Florida (Zone 9b)
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plantladylin
Jun 7, 2012 11:28 AM CST
Monica: That's a great proposal for the database!! Thumbs up Thumbs up Thumbs up
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Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Jun 8, 2012 12:05 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

krancmm said:Cultivar: My understanding of the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants (ICNCP, Cultivated Plant Code) is that there can be only one cultivar of a given plant.


This has been my assertion for some time, and originally the database only supported one cultivar field. But Zuzu prevailed upon me that Roses needed multiple cultivar names, (and this seems to be true, even if it violates the ICNCP) but I think you're right that those cases should have been able to be handled using your "Also sold as" field.

There appears to be a gap. I threw Alocasia x amazonica 'Polly' in common names - it shouldn't be there. But it shouldn't be in the synonym list either and it certainly doesn't belong as a separate plant. Nor is it a cultivar (the correct name 'Poly' can be traced back to a breeder and date).


In this case, 'Polly' is the field we care about. "Alocasia x amazonica" is the latin name and identifies what kind of plant it is. That value belongs either in the primary latin name fields or else in the synonym fields.

So I would say "Polly" by itself would belong as one of the "secondary" cultivar names as it stands today, and in the future would move into an "Also sold as" field.

What I propose is a new field "Also Sold As" directly under Trade Name that would allow multiple entries for the various wild and whacky names under which a plant might be sold. It would need to be searchable.


I think what might be better still is to do away with "Trade Name" altogether, and have a series of fields where you can enter one by one all the names by which the plant goes, including the trade name.
[Last edited by dave - Jun 8, 2012 12:05 PM (+)]
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Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
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zuzu
Jun 8, 2012 12:29 PM CST

Plants Admin

I think that's a great suggestion, Dave. Get rid of the "trade name" line and list the trade names as alternative names. As long as they appear in "search," everything should be fine.
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
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krancmm
Jun 8, 2012 12:35 PM CST
dave said:This has been my assertion for some time, and originally the database only supported one cultivar field. But Zuzu prevailed upon me that Roses needed multiple cultivar names, (and this seems to be true, even if it violates the ICNCP) but I think you're right that those cases should have been able to be handled using your "Also sold as" field..


Not really. Especially where a plant has an approved registration society (like roses), there is only one cultivar registered - and it will retain that name forever. So 'Radrazz' is the only cultivar registered. It's trade name is Knock Out (in U.S. at least), and maybe it's sold as other names elsewhere.

dave said:In this case, 'Polly' is the field we care about. "Alocasia x amazonica" is the latin name and identifies what kind of plant it is. That value belongs either in the primary latin name fields or else in the synonym fields.

So I would say "Polly" by itself would belong as one of the "secondary" cultivar names as it stands today, and in the future would move into an "Also sold as" field.


Again, not really. Alocasia x amazonica is incorrect as is Alocasia amazonica. Both 'Poly' and "Polly" are being sold under both invalid botanical names. It's only "correct" Latin name at this time is Alocasia 'Poly'. So I would argue that the entire incorrect name should be in the Also Sold As field.


dave said:I think what might be better still is to do away with "Trade Name" altogether, and have a series of fields where you can enter one by one all the names by which the plant goes, including the trade name.


Even and I had a private discussion about this and Trade Name is important as there is typically one TM or registered Trade Name. If a whole bunch were listed, someone would have to be careful to specify exactly what the breeder's Trade Name is. As you're using that in the header of the db, that would be very important. Goldrausch is the only Trade Name used by the breeder for example. That's what should appear if we aren't using 'Leukal 01' in the header, not GoldRush or Gold Rush or any other name.

Monica
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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dave
Jun 8, 2012 12:40 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

krancmm said:Alocasia x amazonica is incorrect as is Alocasia amazonica. Both 'Poly' and "Polly" are being sold under both invalid botanical names. It's only "correct" Latin name at this time is Alocasia 'Poly'.


Ok, I need a lightbulb icon. I now think I see what you mean: vendors are selling this plant using an incorrect latin name and invalid cultivar name, and we want to be able to represent that in the database somehow, and that's where the proposed "Also Sold as" field comes in.

Am I seeing this right now?

But if that's the case, just because a vendor has incorrect information, should we even include that? The only value I see to it is that people searching for this erroneous or mis-spelling information may find it. I can see the value to that, for certain, but it seems like a lot of trouble to go through.

Just asking...
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
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zuzu
Jun 8, 2012 12:43 PM CST

Plants Admin

But most roses predate any registration society, and the convention is to use the exhibition names for roses because so many of them have no registration names. It's a much better system because no one knows what RADrazz is, but most people have heard of 'Knock Out.' RADrazz is listed as an alternative name in the rose database, but it certainly isn't the main name of the rose because it's never exhibited under that name.
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
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krancmm
Jun 8, 2012 1:25 PM CST
So my question: is ATP to be based on a botantical system or "a much better system" or a combination dependent on the passions growers have for specific genera?

Makes me no never mind, but databases by committee usually result in some odd looking entries as the designer tries to satisfy everyone...been there. Mabe Dave is way better at this than I was.

An even more basic question I asked when I first joined, for which I never received feedback, is who is this database's users: the general gardening public, botanists and plant pedants (geeks like me) or everyone? The architecture depends on that answer IMHO.
Monica
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Master Gardener: Texas Permaculture Raises cows I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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dave
Jun 8, 2012 1:39 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

krancmm said:So my question: is ATP to be based on a botantical system or "a much better system" or a combination dependent on the passions growers have for specific genera?


I've been spending a lot of time this week thinking about that, and as you know, we are going to be making fundamental changes to the architecture of the database to (hopefully) resolve once and for all this matter by giving us a flexible data format that will work with all cases.

krancmm said:who is this database's users: the general gardening public, botanists and plant pedants (geeks like me) or everyone? The architecture depends on that answer IMHO.


Well, I would think the answer is "all of the above".

There are pedantic sites out there but they are lacking in features and interactivity (itis, theplantlist, etc).

There are general gardening sites out there but they are often not "data driven" enough to be useful. It's hard to dig through articles and tutorials looking for specific information. Most gardeners out there desire to lookup information about specific plants and they want to see pictures, read notes and learn key data points about those plants.

Botanists? Well, they have their sources. I don't know what we can offer them, really. Growing conditions and reports by users are useful to them, I suppose.

databases by committee usually result in some odd looking entries as the designer tries to satisfy everyone...been there. Mabe Dave is way better at this than I was.


This is the challenge of our database and it's something I've been considering for over a decade. The various kinds of plants have very different requirements in their data storage. I am very thankful to have a group of people interested in all those varieties of plants, and they have helped form our database.

Roses have multiple cultivar names.

Orchids have grex names.

Other plants have strange words and abbreviations in their species (I'm looking at you, Sempervivum).

I was talking to Trish about this the other night and I told her that I think that all plant databases in existence are lousy, but hopefully ours is the least lousy, mostly because we have spent so much time and thought into making it work across the board for all the various odd-ball plant cases. The "parent plant" feature with the custom architecture on a plant kind by kind basis is huge for us.

But to make decisions that affect the entire database is treacherous business because of all these differences.

Part of me has wondered if we should loosen, rather than tighten, the way the data is presented in the database.

The other part thinks I should expand out even further what we are already doing and tighten it down even further.

You suggested some time ago adding the source of each latin name and that suggestion got me thinking about re-doing how latin names (and other names) are added and shown in the database, but I'm getting a little ahead of myself and the current topic.
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
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eclayne
Jun 8, 2012 2:59 PM CST

Plants Admin

A lot to ponder. My 2 cents.

Baseline:
- There is only one correct scientific name (even if in flux or being disputed).
- There can be numerous correct synonyms (even if in flux or being disputed).
- There are incorrect scientific names used. [invalid] names found on taxon sites (ITIS, ...).
- Generally there is only one correct cultivar name, with a few society driven exceptions. Rosa, maybe Lilium, maybe others.
- There can be multiple correct Trade Designations. ex. Translated cv. names meet the ICNCP criteria.

The Trade and other sources:
A. There are numerous incorrect scientific names used. Just inaccurate. Not noted on taxon site (ITIS, ...).
B. There are numerous cv. names not recognized by any authority (some used by "good" growers) that are not Trade Designations (Do not meet ICNCP criteria).

In the synonym field, if we accept [invalid] after a scientific name which does not appear on a taxon site, problem A solved. Better yet [illegitimate].
If we have a 3rd field like "As Sold As", incorrect Cultivar/Trade Designations/Trade Names/Garbage Names can be added. Problem B solved.

Flaw: [illegitimate] scientific name often pared with incorrect B name.
Evan
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
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krancmm
Jun 8, 2012 3:35 PM CST
dave said:

Ok, I need a lightbulb icon. I now think I see what you mean: vendors are selling this plant using an incorrect latin name and invalid cultivar name, and we want to be able to represent that in the database somehow, and that's where the proposed "Also Sold as" field comes in.

Am I seeing this right now?

But if that's the case, just because a vendor has incorrect information, should we even include that? The only value I see to it is that people searching for this erroneous or mis-spelling information may find it. I can see the value to that, for certain, but it seems like a lot of trouble to go through.

Just asking...


Sorry, I missed your post earlier.

Yes, to your seeing this right now.

If someone at ATP has taken the trouble to research what a plant's "correct" nomenclature is, then she/he has already run across all the "junk" info as well. Thus, it isn't that difficult to add. It didn't take me much longer to add all the synonyms (valid or not) and "sold as" once I'd researched Alocasia 'Poly'. A copy & paste operation.
Monica
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
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zuzu
Jun 8, 2012 3:35 PM CST

Plants Admin

Here's something interesting:

http://www.catalogueoflife.org/search/all/key/symphyandra/ma...

I saw an entry for Symphyandra zanzegur and suspected that it was a misspelled duplicate of S. zangezura, but when I looked it up to make sure, I saw that Symphyandra doesn't seem to exist as a genus any longer and all of the names have become synonyms of Campanulas and a couple of other genera. Is there a moderator for campanula or symphyandra that wants to tackle this or should I make these changes?

My suspicions were correct, by the way: S. zanzegur does not seem to exist, although Annie's Annuals and other reputable sources are using that name. So, should it be included as an incorrect or illegitimate name of S. zangezura (or of Campanula zangezura, in keeping with the pending changes)?
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
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krancmm
Jun 8, 2012 3:45 PM CST
>>Flaw: [illegitimate] scientific name often pared with incorrect B name.

Evan, do you mean when there's no way of determining what the correct Latin and cultivar name is? And we have a truly unknown plant?
Monica
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
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krancmm
Jun 8, 2012 3:55 PM CST
zuzu said:Here's something interesting:

http://www.catalogueoflife.org/search/all/key/symphyandra/ma...

I saw an entry for Symphyandra zanzegur and suspected that it was a misspelled duplicate of S. zangezura, but when I looked it up to make sure, I saw that Symphyandra doesn't seem to exist as a genus any longer and all of the names have become synonyms of Campanulas and a couple of other genera. Is there a moderator for campanula or symphyandra that wants to tackle this or should I make these changes?

My suspicions were correct, by the way: S. zanzegur does not seem to exist, although Annie's Annuals and other reputable sources are using that name. So, should it be included as an incorrect or illegitimate name of S. zangezura (or of Campanula zangezura, in keeping with the pending changes)?


If we used what I proposed, the Latin name would be Campanula zangezura; synonym is Symphyandra zangezura; Also Sold As: Symphyandra zanzegur, and maybe eventually Campanula zanzegur.

Monica
[Last edited by krancmm - Jun 8, 2012 3:59 PM (+)]
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Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
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eclayne
Jun 8, 2012 3:57 PM CST

Plants Admin

If we can add [illegitimate] scientific names in the synonym field.
and
Incorrect, not recognized, cultivar names in the additional Cultivar field

will a search recognize that combination?
Evan
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Jun 8, 2012 4:14 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Yes, I can certainly program the search to search ALL fields, including illegitimate or incorrect fields.
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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eclayne
Jun 8, 2012 4:17 PM CST

Plants Admin

Here's an example that just came to light from our resident Alocasia expert.

see
"Alocasia odora 'California' is a trade name for Alocasia gageana"

Both Alocasia gageana and Alocasia odora are accepted names.
Evan
Name: Monica
Texas Gulf Coast (Zone 9b)
Sweat Weather, Not Sweater Weather
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Gulf Coast Multi-Region Gardener Seed Starter
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krancmm
Jun 8, 2012 4:24 PM CST
eclayne said:Here's an example that just came to light from our resident Alocasia expert.

see
"Alocasia odora 'California' is a trade name for Alocasia gageana"

Both Alocasia gageana and Alocasia odora are accepted names.


Is it a trade name in the sense we've been discussing: Leucanthemum Goldrausch or an "Also Sold As"?
Monica
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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eclayne
Jun 8, 2012 4:29 PM CST

Plants Admin

Also sold as.

edit: I believe! Both the scientific name and cv. name are not correct.
Evan
[Last edited by eclayne - Jun 8, 2012 4:34 PM (+)]
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