Roses forum: Heirloom Old Miniature Roses

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Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
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NickyNick
Jun 12, 2019 7:28 PM CST
All of the miniature roses shown here have been growing in the ground for at least 25 years.

Just by sheer luck, I was able to find one of the original plant labels shoved way down into the soil at the base of one of them!

The plant label reads:

Heirloom Old Garden Roses
24062 Riverside Dr.
St. Paul, OR 97137
503-538-1576
RED CASCADE
hanging basket


1st pic - A row of named miniature rose cultivars, the size of the bushes really not so miniature now, after growing in the ground for approximately 25 years. Nearly all of the original plant labels (on which the cultivar names were printed or written) have long since disappeared.

2nd pic - Another view of the same row. Some of the bushes have grown to be quite large, while others (having been neglected) have been overrun by other plants creeping into the bed. I have already started to uncover some of these roses and plan to get this bed looking like it once did, planted with roses and lavender.

3rd pic - Close-up of cultivar RED CASCADE and another white-flowered miniature (unknown name).

4th pic - Kitty nestled down in his "Bed of Roses" as I photograph them.

5th pic - A "hot pink" miniature cultivar (unknown name).

6th pic - RED CASCADE in a raised bed in the front yard (same plant as in the previous pics).

7th pic - A view further back showing RED CASCADE, a white-flowered miniature rose cultivar (unknown name) and a native sword fern.

8th pic - Close-up of the white-flowered miniature rose cultivar (unknown name).

9th pic - Kitty takes a nap in the shade nearby while I photograph the roses. Record heat today for two days now, around 97°F for a high temperature. This is 12 June 2019 in Gladstone, Oregon, in the Willamette Valley. Never before has it been this hot in recorded history! The weather people on the radio and TV repeatedly state this.

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Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 12, 2019 7:53 PM CST

Moderator

Very pretty, and Kitty is adorable.
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member Dog Lover Cat Lover Keeper of Poultry Keeps Horses I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Plant Identifier Raises cows Roses Farmer Celebrating Gardening: 2015
porkpal
Jun 12, 2019 8:00 PM CST
Your rose jungle and your kitty are very appealing. Both seem healthy and happy.
Porkpal
Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
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NickyNick
Jun 12, 2019 8:31 PM CST
to : zuzu

and

to: porkpal

Yes, kitty loves it here just as I do!
Name: Carol
Alberta, Canada (Zone 3b)
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Canadian_Rose
Jun 13, 2019 12:52 AM CST
Hi Nick,
I loooove your white miniature rose! What a standout!! And you have a tuxedo cat...so cute!! Lovey dubby You have a plethora of blooms! Thought I'd sneak in a "fancy" word. Hilarious! Well done, Nick! Thumbs up
Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
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NickyNick
Jun 13, 2019 3:50 AM CST
to: Canadian_Rose

Yes my kitty is indeed a "Tuxedo" - I learned that the first time about a year ago at the Veteran's Affairs clinic where I had to go for yearly lab work - a lady there had cat paws tattooed on the back of her hand and I commented "Oh, I see you are a 'cat lady' "

She didn't say much about my comment, but then brought up pics of cats on her computer, showing me some of her cats. I saw one like mine and she said "that's called a tuxedo ..." and explained to me why. Sure enough, later I went online in Google Images and saw other tuxedo kitty's a lot like mine. Mine has four white paws and the "tuxedo" shield-shaped white part on his chest, so he really fits the bill!

I'm working today (later on) uncovering the long-neglected row of miniatures, mainly the plants in the middle of the row which other adjacent plants have overrun and buried them. I found a couple of markers I had put there long ago but they only had my reference numbers labeled on them (R15, R19). Looked for a notebook, but so far haven't found it, where I recorded the cultivar names probably. Still a possibility. Anyway, it's the roses in this row that sets the hips in the Fall, so there's plenty of time yet to get then back in shape before then. Then I should have some hips with viable seeds. This is how you develop new cultivars, from seeds, and the seeds in this case will be from miniatures.

Now all YOU have to do is rent (or buy) a huge greenhouse with about 50 surrounding acres to develop those new cultivars! Nothing to it!

I THOUGHT you were very well educated (or very well-read and very intelligent) - a plethora indeed ... Oregon, and especially the Willamette Valley of Oregon, and especially Portland ("The City of Roses") is the perfect place to grow them. On one of my plant collecting expeditions here in the 1970s I climbed down a cliff face to where a large group of trailing or climbing roses was growing, which could never be seen from the road above - but here on a ledge on the face of a 50 foot cliff were these roses, along with red sedum, which had obviously been growing there for decades. I wondered "how did these get here?" I think they must have been deposited by birds in their droppings from eating the seeds in the hips of plants growing elsewhere, or ... but the red sedums? I researched as much as I could and found that neither are native to Oregon. The trailing roses had extremely long canes, and two colors of flowers: red ("hot pink") and white. They are still probably growing there, not far from the Dr. John McLoughlin monument on 99E (McLoughlin Blvd.) in Oregon City, Oregon, overlooking the Willamette Falls. Dr. John was a Chief Factor with the Hudson's Bay Company and the McLoughlin House is right here in Oregon City, not too far away from where I found the roses, and where Dr. John himself built a sawmill at Willamette Falls before Oregon was a state, and before Oregon City was a city. A lot of history here but this is the "short version". Maybe the trailing or climbing roses began growing there from that time period, and maybe Dr. John himself threw them over the cliff when he was weeding out his garden surrounding his house on the hill (!?)

I do know that Hudson's Bay Company is still in existence, with outposts in the remotest parts of Alaska and elsewhere. Have to stop here ... too much history for 2:45 AM local time ... and tomorrow's another day



Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
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NickyNick
Jun 13, 2019 3:54 AM CST
The McLoughlin house in O.C. (from wikipedia)
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Name: Carol
Alberta, Canada (Zone 3b)
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Canadian_Rose
Jun 13, 2019 11:20 AM CST
Holey Moley, Nick...I'm thinking there's not much you won't do for roses...climbing down to a ledge on a 50 foot cliff?? What?? Blinking

Yup, definitely a Tuxedo Cat. My family is very allergic to cats...so I can't have one...so we stick to dogs. Although there is a Russian breed that is supposed to be hypoallergenic!

I have a grow light shelving unit for when I try to grow seedlings or cuttings. But, yeah, that's not going to be as good as 50 acres Hilarious!

I'm going with the bird theory...some people scarify (scrape) the seeds to simulate being in a birds gut. Thumbs up Thus showing that birds are the main dispersers of seeds.

You weren't kidding when you said that you're really into history! nodding
Name: seil
St Clair Shores, MI (Zone 6a)
Roses Garden Photography Region: Michigan
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seilMI
Jun 13, 2019 1:45 PM CST
The roses are beautiful and so is your Kitty! I wonder if that first white rose could be Popcorn? The red one does look just like Red Cascade. Can you get close ups of the blooms so we can help you ID them?
Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
Image
NickyNick
Jun 13, 2019 9:21 PM CST
to: Canadian_Rose

Having given it more thought, I'm thinking that the cliff was more like 75 feet tall, but not a sheer cliff, it had sloping sides, so if you were careful, you could navigate it to the bottom (which I did) - but that was in the 1970s when I was young and fearless. I'm still considering the bird theory BUT there were also numerous patches or red sedum growing there too, among them, so …

Well, Oregon history seems to be part of my life force, having been born in a hospital literally a "stones throw" to the End of the Oregon Trail Monuments in Oregon city (2 concrete monuments with brass plaques and an interpretive center with 2 large covered wagons nearby.

________________

to: SeilMi

That 1st white rose: cv. "Popcorn" it may in fact be! I will try my best at close-ups in the future, but very hard for me with the camera I'm using. Just have to take a lot of pics and try to get lucky.

RED CASCADE is a positive ID owing to the plant marker I found with it.
_________________

Today I called Heirloom Old Garden Roses in St. Paul, Oregon to ask how much their catalog was; my plan was to mail them a check. I talked to Courtney. She said that they no longer have a catalog in print form, it's online. I asked if they still carried RED CASCADE miniature rose. She said "Hold on, I'll check … " After about a minute she said "No we don't."

I told her about the plant marker that I found:

Heirloom Old Garden Roses
24062 Riverside Dr.
St. Paul, OR 97137
503-538-1576
RED CASCADE
hanging basket

She said "That was not one of our creations … "

She told me that some of the roses that they sell are created by other breeders. I told her "Well, I think I have a rarity!" She said "Yes, you probably do."

I spent most of the day clearing an ENORMOUS amount of plant material that had overrun my bed of miniature roses. The result:

1st pic - This rose was flowering at the top of very long canes, but as I cleared the plant material away, I was surprised to find a little tiny cane way down at the base with a cluster of flowers on it, completely hidden from view previously. The plant marker: R15

2nd pic - A view facing south of part of the row I cleared

3rd pic - A tiny remnant of of miniature rose bush next to a broken down lavender plant, long neglected. No marker could be found. The flower color is a little different than R15, pinker with whitish areas on the petals.

4th pic - A view of the row I cleared, facing north, showing the R15 rose flowering at the top of long canes. The color is clearly magenta, a single rose with yellow throat.

5th pic - Moving in a little closer from the previous pic

6th pic - Moving in closer and a little farther north, the rose pictured in the 4th pic is far left, and next are 2 very large bushes growing very close to each other. Both have white "zinnia-like" flowers

7th pic - Backtracking south again. A close-up of the R15 rose at the base of several very long canes.

8th pic - Close up of the rose in the 3rd pic, net to the broken down lavender plant. Blur and sun glare (sorry)

9th pic - Going north again to the last two very large buses growing very close to each other at the end of the row. I found a marker for this one: R19

10th pic - The next one at the very end of the row. I'm still clearing around it, so maybe I'll find a marker yet. This last two roses appear to be the same cultivar.

11th pic - Staking the large canes to separate the last two roses in the row.

12th pic - A view facing south - in the foreground is a bed of woolly lamb's ears just coin into bloom. At extreme left is a very old plant of Madder, the runners have crept underneath the sidewalk and the plant(s) have overrun the rose bed, and have continued their spread to the west, to overrun a bed of mints - until I put a stop to it today.

SIDE NOTE: Madder (Rubia tinctorum) - famous for yielding an INTENSE red dye (from the roots) which the British used for military uniforms in the Colonial Days of America (U.S.A), from which the term "Red Coats" arose.

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Name: Carol
Alberta, Canada (Zone 3b)
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Canadian_Rose
Jun 13, 2019 9:59 PM CST
Sounds like you've been working hard! I was hacking away at a few shrubs in our front yard, and things look much better now. As to your climbing/descending...yes you were certainly brave (dare I substitute "foolhardy Whistling Hilarious! ) when you were younger.
Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
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NickyNick
Jun 14, 2019 3:12 AM CST
Oh, I got much more adventurous than that. I went way out on a headland 100 feet or so above the Pacific Ocean, at the farthest point that I felt was safe to venture to, after studying the wave motion for about an hour. The rock I wanted to explore was completely swept over by waves 2 or 3 times during that period, so just after it was swept over for the 4th time, I dashed out and looked at the little plants, dripping in salt water, at the western-most piece of land in that area - that I could see in the whole area for miles. I collected some in a zip-loc bag and brought them back to my camp where I had several books of the botany of the area. Spent a whole summer doing that, and a total of about 2½ years altogether - and discovered many incredible things - about myself, and about the natural world in that area, totally uninfluenced by humanity.

Which brings to mind (at this early hour of 1:45 AM local time, as I'm just now getting ready for my 2nd cup of coffee, and starting to get completely focused): I'd like to recommend one of the best books ever:

"Man and the Natural World" by Keith Thomas - written in 1983 so that term "Man" is archaic now - it would now be something like "Humankind and the Natural World" in the present time. This copy was previously owned by a person who, in my view, has broken the first rule of treating a book: NEVER MARK IN IT (or add your own ridiculous comments in the margins) or underline almost every sentence in the book, or completely yellow the pages with your highlight felt marker, etc.



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Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
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NickyNick
Jun 14, 2019 6:18 AM CST
Garden.org
Rose (Rosa 'Red Cascade') in the Roses Database
Alternative cultivar names:
'Red Cascade'
'MOORcap'
Data specific to Roses
Bloom size: Small: under 2"
Petal count: double: 16-25 petals
Rose bloom color: Dark red
Extra Bloom Info: In clusters
Rebloom: Good
Class: Miniature
Growth Habit: Very short, 1-2 feet, very bushy; true groundcover rose. Can also be grown as climbing miniature, 6-8 feet tall.
Fragrance: Mild
Hybridizer & year: Ralph S. Moore, 1976
Optimal growing zones: USDA zone 5 and warmer
General Plant Information
Plant Habit: Shrub
Life cycle: Perennial
Sun Requirements: Full Sun
Soil pH Preferences: Moderately acid (5.6 – 6.0)
Slightly acid (6.1 – 6.5)
Neutral (6.6 – 7.3)
Slightly alkaline (7.4 – 7.8)
Plant Height: 1-2 feet
Plant Spread: 6-8 feet
Leaves: Deciduous
Flowers: Showy
Fragrant
Flower Color: Red
Flower Time: Spring, Summer, Fall
Uses: Groundcover, Cut Flower
Wildlife Attractant: Bees
Propagation: Other methods: Cuttings: Stem
Cuttings: Tip
Containers: Suitable in 3 gallon or larger
Needs repotting every 2 to 3 years
Needs excellent drainage in pots
Miscellaneous: With thorns/spines/prickles/teeth
Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
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NickyNick
Jun 14, 2019 8:15 AM CST
600 dpi scans of the flowers & foliage from the row of miniature roses on the west side of the house

I notice now that R19 has a different flower structure than the roses on the north and south ends of the row (these two "end bushes" look like the same cultivar)

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Name: Rosemary
Sacramento, CA (Zone 9b)
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reh0622
Jun 14, 2019 9:07 AM CST
Red Cascade looks like a thornless or nearly thornless miniature. Is that correct?
Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
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NickyNick
Jun 14, 2019 9:11 AM CST
to: reh0622

Just a moment and I'll go out and check!

600 dpi scans of the flowers & foliage from the row of miniature roses on the west side of the house (continued)

Compare this with R15
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Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
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NickyNick
Jun 14, 2019 9:24 AM CST
to: reh0622

RED CASCADE definitely has thorns!

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Name: Carol
Alberta, Canada (Zone 3b)
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Canadian_Rose
Jun 14, 2019 1:19 PM CST
Wow...you were insane!!! Hilarious! But driven by your passion to explore. Good for you!
Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
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NickyNick
Jun 14, 2019 5:58 PM CST
to: Canadian_Rose

Just by coincidence my brother just came by and I was telling him to check Garden.org - all the threads I've started on different forums, especially on the Roses forum where I have 2 different threads. He lived in this house too until he moved out at around 18 years of age. I was telling him about this thread particularly - stuff he did not know himself because he wasn't here in those years, when the miniature roses were planted.

AND I was telling him also, along with the rose history, I like to tell about my own history, and I told him to read this thread where I tell about going out onto that rock connected to the headland that gets over-swept by waves periodically, to collect little plants, etc.

Well, here's a little more on that:

That place is Otter Point, on the Oregon Coast just north of Gold Beach, Oregon. Those plants that I collected:

One was called Owl Clover, but a specific kind (the name I don't remember). The amazing thing about those - they are terrestrial plants, but what I would call extremophiles since they are able to endure both the drenching of salt water, and the terrific battering of the winter storms. Those tiny little plants may just as well be on another planet, so unlike the usual terrestrial plants that one may encounter. And how isolated they are from the rest of the world, almost completely surrounded by the Pacific Ocean except for that narrow little connection to the headland. And for me, the excitement of possibly seeing plants that nobody else has ever seen.

Not far from that same area on the coast, an amazing aquatic mushroom was discovered. I have seen botanical wonders myself that I KNOW nobody has ever seen, deep in ravines, the existence of these ravines not even known, because I have the opportunity now to use the internet for research.

Here is one reference point for anyone to start at, if they are young and adventurous:

> Wikipedia

Otter Point State Recreation Site
" Otter Point State Recreation Site is a state park in the U.S. state of Oregon, administered by the Oregon Parks and Recreation Department."
Location: Curry County, Oregon
Nearest city: Gold Beach
Coordinates 42°27′44″N 124°25′24″W
Coordinates: 42°27′44″N 124°25′24″W

NOTE: to get to that rock that I described above, one must "break the rules" and go past the point where visitors are instructed NOT to go, at risk of their lives! MY DISCLAIMER: I do not advocate violation of the law, especially in that case, where crossing that barrier is both illegal, and puts you in GREAT RISK of losing your life, since one of those waves which periodically sweep the rocks would certainly sweep you out to sea with absolutely no hope of ever getting ashore again, and nobody probably would ever know it happened.

But I have always found, that for me, those signs and barriers are just to keep others out of the domain that is the most worthwhile to explore and to exist in.

That urge for exploration comes from my Viking ancestry. To chronicle my accounts, that comes from my Society of Friends (Quaker) ancestry. These two "lines" sometimes conflict with each other and create a state of chaos, but order and placidity does follow to settle things out, kind of a state of "placitude" [the English language is notable for the allowance of an individual to create his or her own word if the opportunity arises - and it just did].





Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
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AquaEyes
Jun 14, 2019 6:02 PM CST
'Red Cascade' is still carried by a few nurseries. And I think you should look up 'Little White Pet' as a possibility for one of your others -- the white I saw in your first round of pictures looks just like it. Oh, and I saw a few pictures of what looks like 'Mr. Bluebird'.

Have you also explored HelpMeFind? It's a great database for looking up roses.

https://www.helpmefind.com/ros...

:-)

~Christopher

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