Roses forum: Heirloom Old Miniature Roses

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Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
Image
NickyNick
Jun 15, 2019 12:06 AM CST
to: AquaEyes

Thank you so much Christopher for that URL of HelpMeFind? (rose database)! I spent a couple of hours last night using Google to search for a good one, and THAT was never in it's search results, so in other words, without your pointing that out to me, I would have never found or known about it. I just looked at the home page, so I will try using that, unless a window pops up and asks for a subscription and deny me use ... I have it saved as a reference, though.

I'll check for 'Little White Pet' and 'Mr. Bluebird'

I thought that some nurseries may still carry Red Cascade - I saw some in Google Images when I did a quick look ...

An important note: my camera WILL NOT correctly photograph the flower color of one of the miniature roses planted in the same bed as Red Cascade. When I looked at the image, it looked like sun glare had flooded it out, but looking at the color naturally with your eyes only, it is a very intense magenta and REALLY stands out among the other miniatures planted there, like neon lights. I read somewhere that some cameras will not correctly pick up colors near the ultra-violet range, and at the other end of the scale of the visible spectrum, so some flower colors like magenta and violet will not photograph correctly:

According to Wikipedia (my quick reference):

" Visible spectrum: The spectrum does not contain all the colors that the human eyes and brain can distinguish. Unsaturated colors such as pink, or purple variations like magenta, for example, are absent because they can only be made from a mix of multiple wavelengths ... "

In other words, what the camera sees and what the naked eye sees may be entirely different. I have photographed violets (Viola odorata) which the eye sees as violet or purple, but the camera sees as blue.

Another example: I have several plants of Cardoon (Cynara cardunculus) and when those flowers bloom, one day you swear the color is blue, but the next day it may look like purple or violet, or even close to magenta. And they photograph in those variations also.

I made a note to take high resolution scans of some of the other miniatures that are planted in the same bed as Red Cascade, especially the magenta-colored one. All of them came from the same source as Red Cascade, and were planted at the same time. There WAS a very nice double-flowered peach colored rose with tinges of purple and white planted there, and I remember seeing a plant label sticking out of the ground where someone had pulled it up, took a look at it, and shoved it back in the soil. A short time later, the rose was gone - someone had stolen it! This one was truly a miniature, growing only about a foot tall in 25 years, staying very small and compact. This bed is by the public road where passersby can easily access it. There is another small, very compact rose, but it has already bloomed - 2 flowers only - single flowers of salmon color(?) and no plant marker with it.

So watch this thread tomorrow for scans of the others planted with Red Cascade. My Canon flatbed scanner picks up true colors, unlike my camera.

source of images: Wikipedia

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Name: Carol
Alberta, Canada (Zone 3b)
Image
Canadian_Rose
Jun 15, 2019 1:12 AM CST
Nicky - that's an interesting reason for why our cameras can't seem to pick up on certain colors. I've been frustrated by that many times.

Sounds like you should have been a botanist....like one of those scientists that go all over the world to extreme locations to look for a plant/mushroom etc. that could be the next holy grail for antibiotics. You fit the bill for that personality perfectly!!!
Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
Image
NickyNick
Jun 15, 2019 6:58 AM CST
to Canadian_Rose:

I guess I was sort of a "tramp botanist" (I think it was John Muir that used that phrase to describe himself). I did not have a goal or mission really - I just "tramped about" studying the plants, using the best reference books that I could pack with me into the woods. I used the books mainly to identify the plants that I encountered focusing mainly on edible plants. One of my best references was "Flora of the Pacific Northwest" by Hitchcock & Cronkite (I think that's the correct title and authors) which was a hardbound reference of more than 300 pages with botanical keys and nomenclature, and line drawings to identify plants - so you had to be an amateur botanist practically just to use the book correctly, but I spent hours just turning the pages while I ate, looking at the line drawings until I came across a plant that I recognized - so that's mainly how I used it, and it proved to be a very valuable reference.

I do like to read about professional plant hunters like the ones you describe, but that's not really me. To be one of those guys, you have to be employed by one of the "Big Pharma" outfits like Bayer or Squibb [Bristol-Myers Squibb], with a specific goal of making them wealthy, and creating a lot of stress for me.

About the aquatic mushroom:

Google > Mushrooms Underwater

[a short quote]:

"FRIDAY, MAY 27, 2016 - Fish are not the only gilled residents inhabiting the crystal clear waters of Oregon's Rogue River. A recently discovered species of mushroom, Psathyrella aquatica, has been described as the only aquatic gilled fungus. The discovery is traced back to 2005, when researchers from Southern Oregon University, stumbled upon the mushrooms in the Rogue River by chance … "

Here again, if the Oregon University is involved, the goal is to enrich the coffers of the University in some way, probably through research which will benefit the pharma or medical industries primarily ...

John Muir's legacy was to preserve a lot of wilderness to "tramp around" in - I like that idea better!


Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
Image
NickyNick
Jun 15, 2019 7:59 AM CST
to AquaEyes:

I did check the database you recommended:

HelpMeFind? (rose database)

for 'Little White Pet' the search results came back > "Polyantha. White. ..." etc.

I do not think this is my rose, since it is a Polyantha type, not a miniature

for 'Mr. Bluebird' the search results came back > " Mauve or mauve blend Miniature.
Registration name: Mr. Bluebird
Exhibition name: Mr. Bluebird
Bred by Ralph S. Moore (United States, 1960).
Introduced in Australia by Roy H. Rumsey Pty. Ltd. in 1962 as 'Mr. Bluebird'.
China / Bengale, Miniature.
Mauve or purple blend. Mild fragrance. Average diameter 1.75". Medium, single (4-8 petals), cluster-flowered, in small clusters bloom form. Blooms in flushes throughout the season.
Height of 1' to 2' (30 to 60 cm).
USDA zone 4b through 10b. Spring Pruning: Remove old canes and dead or diseased wood and cut back canes that cross. In warmer climates, cut back the remaining canes by about one-third. In colder areas, you'll probably find you'll have to prune a little more than that.
Old Blush × Unknown
Per official Sequoia Nursery plant information, Mr. Bluebird is a self seedling of Old Blush. Mr. Moore always considered it as Old Blush X Old Blush. "
___________________________

I DO believe that is a good hit for one (or more) of my miniature roses, since it was Ralph S. Moore who was the breeder also for 'Red Cascade'

AND the category for 'Mr. Bluebird' says it pretty well: " Mauve or mauve blend Miniature."

Further down, in the description: " ... Miniature. Mauve or purple blend. Mild fragrance. Average diameter 1.75". Medium, single (4-8 petals), cluster-flowered, in small clusters bloom form ... "

AND > " Old Blush × Unknown
Per official Sequoia Nursery plant information, Mr. Bluebird is a self seedling of Old Blush. Mr. Moore always considered it as Old Blush X Old Blush. "
________________________

I find it very interesting in two respects: the flower color and the breeding information. To my eyes, the flower color is magenta, very bright and intense. What the camera will photograph though, may be "blue" or in the "violet or indigo" range, like the color of the Viola odorata flowers I was talking about in my post above about "Visible spectrum"

The breeding information indicates that it is a hybrid (Old Blush × Unknown) and that " Per official Sequoia Nursery plant information, Mr. Bluebird is a self seedling of Old Blush. Mr. Moore always considered it as Old Blush X Old Blush."

... which tells me a lot: 'Old Blush' was probably crossed with itself (Old Blush X Old Blush) to produce numerous seedlings from which the cultivar 'Mr. Bluebird' was selected. Also, the statement " Mr. Bluebird is a self seedling of Old Blush " indicates to me pretty much the same thing, that the two parent plants (both 'Old Blush') were crossed (hand pollinated) to produce numerous seedlings from which one seedling was selected and named 'Mr. Bluebird'




Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
Image
NickyNick
Jun 15, 2019 10:40 AM CST
Here's a scan of an unknown cultivar of miniature rose which is growing in the same bed as 'Red Cascade'.

I am using old Crayola Crayons as a color reference since the colors used in these OLD Crayons very accurately represent true colors. I do not know if Crayola makes these particular colors anymore. I have hundreds of these old crayons which I use in art applications, sorted into different color ranges. These four crayons were selected from that collection. These crayons were manufactured in the U.S.A. and are probably about 25 to 30 years old.

see > Wikipedia : Crayola
see > Colors " As the size of Crayola crayon packs increased from the original 1903 crayon packs, the variety of colors available has also increased—reaching 120 colors by 1998. Since 1998, new colors have been added, but always replacing existing colors. In all, 50 colors have been retired, bringing the total number of regular colors produced to 170. On March 31, 2017, Crayola announced that Dandelion would be retired. On September 14, 2017, the replacement color "Bluetiful" was announced. The color is reportedly a new hue realized after experiments done at Oregon State University. It was discovered while scientists were experimenting with electronics. "
see > Fine art " Although marketed to children and amateur artists, several professional artists have specialized in using Crayola crayons as their primary medium. Don Marco, who works with Crayola crayons and construction paper, is one of the better known crayon artists—having sold over one million prints of his original artworks."

scan: unknown cultivar.JPG (600 dpi)

image: crayola colors.JPG (from Wikipedia)

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[Last edited by NickyNick - Jun 15, 2019 10:42 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1999937 (5)
Name: Carol
Alberta, Canada (Zone 3b)
Image
Canadian_Rose
Jun 15, 2019 2:07 PM CST
Nick - wow! I googled aquatic mushrooms...that's the coolest thing! I never would have thought that mushrooms would "call" water home. Strange and cool! Thumbs up Thank You!

Tramp biologist...I love that!

I also love that crayola reference!
Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
Image
NickyNick
Jun 15, 2019 5:25 PM CST
to: Canadian_Rose

Thank you Carol! The Crayon color reference has taken me years of study, and buying collections of old crayons at yard & estate sales, accumulating them, and sorting them categories in zip-loc sandwich bags, as shown in the scan below. I use them in various art applications - and in this case they serve very well as a color reference where the color can be shown, and a name given to that color, as established by the Crayola company. Then a protocol can be established if everyone concerned agrees upon using this as a color reference.

In this case, I am using it to judge the color of the flower in the scan above "miniature rose unknown cultivar". I am seeing now that the color of the flower more closely matches red-violet than magenta, as I had previously thought.


Reading back through the description for 'Mr. Bluebird' that I posted for AquaEyes:

The description of the flowers is as follows: " Mauve or purple blend. Mild fragrance. Average diameter 1.75". Medium, single (4-8 petals), cluster-flowered, in small clusters bloom form … "

In my huge Crayola collection, I could not find a color labeled "Mauve" so I will be using "red-violet" instead. This is why establishing a protocol is so very important in this case. Whoever wrote that description for 'Mr. Bluebird' and those that accepted the description and published it for the registration of the cultivar name, used a different color protocol for describing the color of the flowers - they had their own color reference charts, published in their journals, etc. I cannot use their reference material, so another protocol has to be established. It may sound confusing at first, but using the Crayon color reference (my scan below in this post) will clarify it.

Now to AquaEyes:

Christopher: I believe you are correct in identifying my miniature rose as 'Mr. Bluebird' using the HelpMeFind? (rose database) as you recommended.

Now, the reason for the color references: WHY did the creator of 'Mr. Bluebird', Ralph S. Moore, call his rose 'Mr. Bluebird', when the flower color given in the description states "Mauve or purple blend" ???

It is because, after years of studying this, as I have described above, some people may see magenta (such as myself) and yet others purplish or violet or blue-violet. Now I think Ralph Moore was seeing blue-violet as the color of the flower, which is why he named it 'Mr. Bluebird'.

I accept now that the proper color would be red-violet (not magenta).

Comments?

scans:

crayon collection-1.JPG

Crayon color reference.JPG

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Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member Dog Lover Cat Lover Keeper of Poultry Keeps Horses I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Plant Identifier Raises cows Roses Farmer Celebrating Gardening: 2015
porkpal
Jun 15, 2019 6:16 PM CST
Many roses are called "blue" or have the color blue in their name; wishful thinking at play since there are no blue roses - (except on the internet).
Porkpal
Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
Image
NickyNick
Jun 15, 2019 6:34 PM CST
to porkpal :

Thank you for your comment! But there is MUCH MORE to it than first "meets the eye" I think. I have seen "so called" Blue roses, and an heirloom which my aunt had growing in her yard was called "Blue Peter" I think the name was, and it did appear to be bluish in color. Many things are at play here ... what the human eye sees, what the camera sees, and these things can be very changeable, and it goes deep into human perception and how the human brain perceives things ...


Additional commentary:

The two extremes of the visible spectrum and how this relates to the flower color of 'Mr. Bluebird'

at one extreme [some people see "reddish"] :

> (infra-red, not visible to humans)
> magenta
> red-violet

at the other extreme [some people see "bluish"] :

> blue-violet
> violet
> (ultra-violet, not visible to humans)

scan: Crayon color reference.JPG

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[Last edited by NickyNick - Jun 15, 2019 7:05 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #2000284 (9)
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Image
RoseBlush1
Jun 15, 2019 7:38 PM CST
NickyNick said:to AquaEyes:

I did check the database you recommended:

HelpMeFind? (rose database)

for 'Little White Pet' the search results came back > "Polyantha. White. ..." etc.


My thought when I first saw your photos of the white rose was also 'Little White Pet'

Miniature roses are not defined by the size of the plant, but by the size of the bloom.

for 'Mr. Bluebird' the search results came back > " Mauve or mauve blend Miniature.
Registration name: Mr. Bluebird
Exhibition name: Mr. Bluebird
Bred by Ralph S. Moore (United States, 1960).
Introduced in Australia by Roy H. Rumsey Pty. Ltd. in 1962 as 'Mr. Bluebird'.
China / Bengale, Miniature.
Mauve or purple blend. Mild fragrance. Average diameter 1.75". Medium, single (4-8 petals), cluster-flowered, in small clusters bloom form. Blooms in flushes throughout the season.
Height of 1' to 2' (30 to 60 cm).
USDA zone 4b through 10b. Spring Pruning: Remove old canes and dead or diseased wood and cut back canes that cross. In warmer climates, cut back the remaining canes by about one-third. In colder areas, you'll probably find you'll have to prune a little more than that.
Old Blush × Unknown
Per official Sequoia Nursery plant information, Mr. Bluebird is a self seedling of Old Blush. Mr. Moore always considered it as Old Blush X Old Blush. "
___________________________

I DO believe that is a good hit for one (or more) of my miniature roses, since it was Ralph S. Moore who was the breeder also for 'Red Cascade'

AND the category for 'Mr. Bluebird' says it pretty well: " Mauve or mauve blend Miniature."

Further down, in the description: " ... Miniature. Mauve or purple blend. Mild fragrance. Average diameter 1.75". Medium, single (4-8 petals), cluster-flowered, in small clusters bloom form ... "

AND > " Old Blush × Unknown
Per official Sequoia Nursery plant information, Mr. Bluebird is a self seedling of Old Blush. Mr. Moore always considered it as Old Blush X Old Blush. "
________________________

I find it very interesting in two respects: the flower color and the breeding information. To my eyes, the flower color is magenta, very bright and intense. What the camera will photograph though, may be "blue" or in the "violet or indigo" range, like the color of the Viola odorata flowers I was talking about in my post above about "Visible spectrum"

The breeding information indicates that it is a hybrid (Old Blush × Unknown) and that " Per official Sequoia Nursery plant information, Mr. Bluebird is a self seedling of Old Blush. Mr. Moore always considered it as Old Blush X Old Blush."

... which tells me a lot: 'Old Blush' was probably crossed with itself (Old Blush X Old Blush) to produce numerous seedlings from which the cultivar 'Mr. Bluebird' was selected. Also, the statement " Mr. Bluebird is a self seedling of Old Blush " indicates to me pretty much the same thing, that the two parent plants (both 'Old Blush') were crossed (hand pollinated) to produce numerous seedlings from which one seedling was selected and named 'Mr. Bluebird'


Most of the miniature roses in that have been in commerce in the US for decades were build upon Ralph Moore's breeding for miniature roses. When Mr. Moore started his breeding program for miniature roses, there were only five miniature roses available to him to start working with in his breeding program.

If you wish to study the roses bred by him on HMF, just go to BREEDERS on the navigation bar on the left and enter RALPH S MOORE in the search field.

Much of HMF is free to all users. There are some advantages to becoming a premium member. One of the most valuable features is that you have access to the lineage tree, if available, for many of the roses you are researching.

It looks like you are making progress with your roses.

I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Carol
Alberta, Canada (Zone 3b)
Image
Canadian_Rose
Jun 15, 2019 7:50 PM CST
There are some colors that I see differently than most people I know. It's that weird color sort of like periwinkle...I also see it as blue, and everyone else as purple.
Name: Sharon Henderson
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8a)
Image
SharonNWRoses
Jun 15, 2019 8:45 PM CST
Nick,
Wow, it's good to see someone so invested in roses and to bring back a garden that has gone astray. It'll be interesting to see how it unfolds over time. Since I live a sticks throw from you in Milwaukie, I get the history and love of roses here.

I went to St Paul to visit Heirloom Roses when you could still buy roses there and see their rose garden in 2016. They used to have lots of miniature roses for sale, however they discontinued offering them a couple of years ago. When your roses were originally planted the only way to buy roses was through printed catalogues or local nurseries. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if most of your roses came from there, since the tag you found was from Heirloom Roses. It might be interesting to find an old catalogue of theirs to see what they offered back then.

This is just 2 rows of many at Heirloom Roses in June 2016:

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Name: Carol
Alberta, Canada (Zone 3b)
Image
Canadian_Rose
Jun 16, 2019 2:08 AM CST
Wow, Sharon!!! Lovey dubby
Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
Image
NickyNick
Jun 16, 2019 2:56 AM CST
To RoseBlush1:

A 2nd very good reason then that 'Little White Pet' is the rose that I have - the 1st being the proposal of AquaEyes (Christopher) who first brought it up, and the recommendation for the HelpMeFind? (rose database).

Very interesting comment on the breeder Ralph S. Moore, also. I will certainly do as you recommended and learn more about him. So he introduced 'Mr. Bluebird' in 1960, which means he must have been involved with the breeding of it at least since the 1950s probably … and I did not know your very important point (until just now) : " Miniature roses are not defined by the size of the plant, but by the size of the bloom. "

Thank you so much!

______________________

to Canadian_Rose :

Yes, that's another one that I forgot about until you brought it up just now!

Just look at the wikipedia entries for "Periwinkle", not only under the heading of "in flora", but also under the heading of "In other uses" which include the name of a color called Periwinkle, defines as "a pale shade of blue"

see> Wikipedia: Vinca

I used to ride my bike almost daily by a large patch of these climbing or descending down a hillside and noticed that one day the color of the flowers seemed to be blue (violet or blue-violet), but on other days they seemed to be tending more toward the red-violet range, using my "Crayon color reference" as a guide for the actual (or perceived) colors, and name reference. Several times I stopped to examine the plants to find out why flowers had changed color - I remember doing that. I think the difference was wether it was overcast or sunny which made them appear differently.

Looking at the Wiki image for Vinca minor, I see it not as purple, not as blue, but closer to red-violet!

__________________

to SharonNWRoses (Portland, Oregon) :

I've been thinking about it a lot lately, trying to remember just how I got these roses from Heirloom Roses in St. Paul, and I think that my father and I actually went there, as you did, and bought them at the nursery. We did not buy any other kinds, just the miniature roses. That must have been in the mid 1990s (?) My idea about a catalog may be wrong, I may be thinking about other catalogs (not theirs). I'm not sure now if I ever had one. I am sure, though, that we bought only the miniature roses at that nursery since we were most interested in the kinds that would grow easily in containers or hanging baskets.

If I bought the 'Red Cascade' from a nursery other than Heirloom Roses in St. Paul, it would have had that local nursery's own plant marker in it, not the Heirloom Roses one. The person I talked to on the phone (Courtney) told me that 'Red Cascade' was not their (Heirloom Rose's) creation, although they had their nursery name and address, etc. printed on that plant label. Any other large nurseries in the area, and I know YOU know these names : Kasch's, 7-Dee's mainly (multiple locations for these two major ones) always had their own plant labels printed with the names of their nurseries on it, plus the cultivar name for the most common plants that they sold. I myself was a vendor and sold to 3 of the Kash's stores and several of the 7-Dee's stores (like Dennis 7-Dees, Drake's 7-Dees, etc.).

Thank you for posting that pic of Heirloom Roses in June of 2016! I don't remember how many acres they had out there like that in the mid 1990s, but it would tire you out walking around there in an afternoon, that's for sure …

images:

VincaMinor.JPG [from Wikipedia "Vinca"]
Crayon color refernce.JPG


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Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Image
RoseBlush1
Jun 16, 2019 4:37 PM CST
Nicky ....

The date of introduction of Ralph Moore's roses is not a true indication of when the rose was bred ... Smiling

Here is a HMF link to 'Lady Moss'

https://www.helpmefind.com/gar...

If you click on the MEMBER COMMENTS tab on the top of the rose page, you will see where Paul Barden, a rose breeder mentored by Ralph Moore, wrote that LM was bred in 1970, but was not introduced to commerce until 2005 !

In a further comment, he explains Moore's coding system for identifying his crosses.

At one time, Heirloom carried many of the roses he introduced. He did not close his own nursery until he was 100 years old.
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
Image
NickyNick
Jun 16, 2019 8:38 PM CST
to RoseBlush1 :

Thanks for that link ... and helpful hints on navigating that rose database. I intend to explore it and learn more about Moore!
Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
Image
NickyNick
Jun 17, 2019 1:35 PM CST
Here's high resolution scans of two different miniature rose cultivars growing in the same bed as 'Red Cascade' - neither of them has plant markers, but all of them came from the same source:

Heirloom Old Garden Roses
24062 Riverside Dr.
St. Paul, OR 97137

They were purchased directly from the nursery about the mid-1990s

The white rose in the first scan was identified as 'Little White Pet', by AquaEyes and RoseBlush1 - This rose is a creation of the miniature rose breeder Ralph S. Moore

It has already been determined that 'Red Cascade' was also a creation of Ralph S. Moore.

The unknown cultivar in the second scan may be also one of
Ralph S. Moore's creations. Any thoughts on the cultivar name?

AquaEyes and RoseBlush1, or any other miniature rose fancier, your opinions would be appreciated.

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Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
Image
AquaEyes
Jun 17, 2019 5:43 PM CST
Don't get hung up on the rose needing to be a "Miniature" to be the correct identity -- many people who plant gardens with Miniatures will also gravitate into Polyantha and China territory, since they can be planted together to achieve a cohesive "look". I'm still sticking by my ID of 'Little White Pet' especially as you've posted a few more pics. That rose came about as a dwarf repeat-blooming sport of 'Felicite et Perpetue', a Sempervirens Rambler. It's rather distinctive within the Polyanthas because it's one of the very few with no Multiflora in it. Also, when I posted my initial suggestion, I had just spent some time dead-heading a bed of 'Little White Pet' at my job earlier, so it was kinda fresh in my brain. And BTW, Ralph Moore didn't breed that rose -- the sport dates back to the late 19th Century.

That last pic made me immediately think of 'Green Ice' -- check it out on HelpMeFind and see if the foliage and other details match your rose.

There's some controversy over the parentage of 'Mr. Bluebird', as you've seen on its HelpMeFind listing. Ralph Moore remembered it as being a seedling of 'Old Blush', from which he raised many seedlings just to see what else was "in there" genetically, and therefore assumed it was a self-pollinated seedling. However, Paul Barden spent some time with Ralph in his last few years, as well as inheriting many of Ralph's roses as he first retired and later passed away. Paul used many of Ralph's roses in his own breeding, and he always insisted that 'Mr. Bluebird' "behaved" as if its pollen parent was one of the purple Multiflora ramblers, such as the 'Violette' Ralph used to breed his 'Sweet Chariot' and its sibling 'Vineyard Song'. Paul said that even in a greenhouse, "things happen", and while Ralph doesn't remember purposely using any other pollen on 'Old Blush' to get those seeds, the resulting seedling certainly appears to have resulted from some stray pollen getting in there. The nail in the coffin -- for me, anyway -- is that 'Mr. Bluebird' shows some fringed stipules, which points to Multiflora ancestry, and not something a pure 'Old Blush' X 'Old Blush' seedling should have. So, there's the official registration parentage, which a human filled out from memory, and the "this probably happened, and you can see the evidence in the plant and its offspring" side that Paul maintained.

In any case, 'Mr. Bluebird' brings up another point -- though registered as a Miniature, it's really a Polyantha genetically, or perhaps a China if Ralph's assumed parentage was correct. Why did Ralph register it as a Miniature, then? Because by the time it was released, "nobody's buying Chinas [or Polyanthas] anymore", as Ralph said himself. 'Mr. Bluebird' fell within the guidelines of how a Miniature should look, and people were buying Miniatures, thus that's how it was classed. And this just goes to show you how there is overlap between classes in many cases, and arguments could be made for reclassification. But once a breeder registers the rose as something, that's what the ARS maintains.

And so this brings me back again to not dismissing a potential identification because that rose isn't technically listed as a Miniature. There are roses which, if introduced today, would probably be classed as such, but the category didn't exist when they came out, so they were classed elsewhere. The earliest Miniatures were dwarf Chinas, and back then they were called Lawrancianas (or Lawrencianas, or some other similar spelling -- I've seen it several ways in old references). They arose from seedlings of 'Roulettii', a dwarf sport of 'Old Blush', or possibly from self-set seedlings of 'Old Blush' directly. Seedlings that maintained the dwarfism mutation were popular for a time, but only a handful still remain. At my cemetery project, I have "Oakington Ruby", "St. Thomas China", "Dolly Dudley", and "Abbott and Burns Family Rose" -- four "found" Lawrancianas from the 19th Century that have lost their original names. Someone into collecting (or gardening with) Miniatures would probably have at least one.

And think about what would draw someone to these roses -- probably something "cute" about roses with small blooms. That same "cute" would be found among Polyanthas and Chinas, and maybe even some old once-blooming things like 'Pompon Bourgogne', 'Spong', 'Petite de Hollande', 'Rose de Meaux', etc. None are technically classed as Miniatures today, but in terms of "what they are", they're miniature Centifolias. So, step outside the box a bit as you consider identities of your rediscovered roses.

:-)

~Christopher
Name: Nick Rowlett
Gladstone, OR (Zone 7a)
Image
NickyNick
Jun 18, 2019 1:00 AM CST
to AquaEyes:

Thanks Christopher - all very interesting to me, and your detailed "insider information" quite fascinating to read!

It sounds to me, from hearing your account, that you personally were in close contact with Ralph Moore and Paul Barden. Even if not, your narrative makes it seem that way, the way you tell it!

> Nick
Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
Image
AquaEyes
Jun 18, 2019 3:35 AM CST
Thanks, but all I've done is read what Paul and others have said on this subject.

:-)

~Christopher

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