Orchids forum→Dendrobium Nestor, anosmum 'Little Scent' discussion

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Name: Carol
Santa Ana, ca
Sunset zone 22, USDA zone 10 A.
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ctcarol
Jun 14, 2019 8:00 AM CST
We have re-assed Den. nestor , and it is Den. anosmum at the moment.
Name: Ursula
Fair Lawn NJ, zone 6b
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Ursula
Jun 14, 2019 8:10 AM CST

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oh ohh, Carol! Rolling on the floor laughing

Seriously now, you think it is the species, not the anosmum hybrid with parishii?
Name: Carol
Santa Ana, ca
Sunset zone 22, USDA zone 10 A.
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ctcarol
Jun 14, 2019 8:33 AM CST
Ursula, when I saw yours next to mine in the DB, I sent Joshua a note, and he agreed that they are not the same, pending further investigation, so he moved it. I got it from Hauserman years ago as Den. superbum 'Little Sweet Scent', and I'm not good at tracking the genetics, so leaving it up to the "experts". I don't show or sell , so it doesn't matter to me, but I hate to see mistakes in the DB.
Name: Ken Ramsey
Vero Beach, FL (Zone 10a)
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drdawg
Jun 14, 2019 9:23 AM CST
I don't know whether this will be any help whatsoever, but here are photos, both taken in 2015, of the anosmum and Little Sweet Scent. Hopefully, mine were labeled correctly. Whistling

Thumb of 2019-06-14/drdawg/655822 Den. anosmum

Thumb of 2019-06-14/drdawg/a70d8f Den. Little Sweet Scent

drdawg (Ken Ramsey) - Tropical Plants & More
http://www.tropicalplantsandmo...
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Name: Big Bill
Livonia, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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BigBill
Jun 14, 2019 10:10 AM CST
Okay guys. I remember doing this before but I'll do it again!
Dendrobium anosmum used to be Dendrobium superbum. So really superbum should not be used any more.
Dendrobium aphyllum is now the proper name for Dendrobium pierardii.
Den. Nestor is Dendrobium parishii X Dendrobium anosmum. Labeling it as Dendrobium parishii X Dendrobium superbum would not be correct.

I should note that anosmum, aphyllum and parishii all have species rank!
Why are there synonyms? Usually a name is changed because the authorities have found an older, published viable name for a species. For example, Dendrobium pierardii is now Dendrobium aphyllum because they found Dendrobium aphyllum to be an older, valid published name for that species.
When you grow orchids, it is all about the ROOTS!!!
Name: Big Bill
Livonia, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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BigBill
Jun 14, 2019 10:30 AM CST
Now let's look at Nestor versus Little Sweetscent!

Nestor was registered as a hybrid of Dendrobium parishii X Dendrobium superbum. But superbum is now properly anosmum. The registration date was 1892!!
Dendrobium Little Sweetscent was registered in 2000. It is a hybrid of Dendrobium parishii X Dendrobium anosmum. But, anosmum as we have previously mentioned, is newer synonym for superbum. So here we go, Nestor and Little Sweetscent are synonym hybrid names! D'Oh! Yes you read that correctly, synonym hybrid names. So which takes precendence??? "Nestor" because it was published in 1892, Little Sweetscent 2000.
I am going to lie down now, my head hurts. Rolling on the floor laughing
When you grow orchids, it is all about the ROOTS!!!
Name: Elaine
Sarasota, Fl
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dyzzypyxxy
Jun 14, 2019 10:53 AM CST
I have two blooming now, somewhat similar to Carol's lovely NOID cattleya:
Thumb of 2019-06-14/dyzzypyxxy/bfbf34 This one's a NOID atm too - lost the tag and it hasn't turned up. I do seem to recall it might have been a cross with 'Azure Skies' in the mix, though.

This is Catt. gaskelliana coerulea 2 as per the tag.
Thumb of 2019-06-14/dyzzypyxxy/78c2e3

Elaine

"Success is stumbling from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm." –Winston Churchill
Name: Ken Ramsey
Vero Beach, FL (Zone 10a)
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drdawg
Jun 14, 2019 11:14 AM CST
I love "purples", Elaine. Here's my Lc. Azure Skies but I don't even know whether she made it to FL with me. She's certainly not bloomed if she did.

Thumb of 2019-06-14/drdawg/95f2c4

drdawg (Ken Ramsey) - Tropical Plants & More
http://www.tropicalplantsandmo...
I don't have gray hair, I have wisdom-highlights. I must be very wise.
Name: Carol
Santa Ana, ca
Sunset zone 22, USDA zone 10 A.
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ctcarol
Jun 14, 2019 12:40 PM CST
Bill, That was Joshua's reasoning to, so he changed it to nestor, but comparing Ursulas to mine in the DB made me question him. Now we all share your headache. Confused Mine looks like Ken's 'Little Sweet Scent'.
Name: Carol
Santa Ana, ca
Sunset zone 22, USDA zone 10 A.
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ctcarol
Jun 14, 2019 12:51 PM CST
Elaine and Ken, The Azure skies 2, looks the most similar as it's lighter , but that could be for any number of reasons, so while I appreciate the help, I'll just stick with NOID and save us all the stress. Smiling
Name: Big Bill
Livonia, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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BigBill
Jun 14, 2019 1:06 PM CST
But Little Sweetscent AND Nestor are the same hybrid. One hybrid name is a synonym for the other!

You can never say that one plant is this versus that based only on color! You need more substantial reasons.
There are several color varieties of both anonsmum and parishii. Some are lighter and some are darker for example.
If you use a darker colored anosmum and cross it with parishii it is still Nestor. And if you cross a lighter colored anosmum with parishii, it too is Nestor.
If I have a black Ford Mustang and you have a red Ford Mustang, we both own a Mustang. Yours is not a Ford "stallion" because it is a different color!!!
When you grow orchids, it is all about the ROOTS!!!
Name: Big Bill
Livonia, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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BigBill
Jun 14, 2019 1:11 PM CST
AND from a technical standpoint, Little Sweetscent is not considered by the RHS to be a valid name for that hybrid.
When you grow orchids, it is all about the ROOTS!!!
Name: Carol
Santa Ana, ca
Sunset zone 22, USDA zone 10 A.
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ctcarol
Jun 14, 2019 1:30 PM CST
The comparison with Ursula's was not based on color alone, but the shape of the flower too. I understand there is some variation. In fact Ken's appears lighter than mine, but that could be the camera, the light, the weather, or genetic. His is the same shape.
Name: Big Bill
Livonia, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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BigBill
Jun 14, 2019 1:57 PM CST
Ultimately you do want you want to.
When you grow orchids, it is all about the ROOTS!!!
Name: Ursula
Fair Lawn NJ, zone 6b
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Ursula
Jun 14, 2019 6:19 PM CST

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Bill, that was Awesome 👏!

So pretty, Elaine and Ken! Lovey dubby

Name: Carol
Santa Ana, ca
Sunset zone 22, USDA zone 10 A.
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ctcarol
Jun 14, 2019 7:50 PM CST
I'm sorry this discussion got the thread so off track. As said, it doesn't matter that much to me, but after reading all of this, it seems the registration process needs to be updated so these don't turn into such a mess. This new DNA technology is very difficult for everyone. The UK is well known for it's excellent record keeping, but our world has speeded up faster than they can keep up, it seems.
Name: Big Bill
Livonia, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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BigBill
Jun 14, 2019 8:26 PM CST
Unfortunately there was no DNA involved here. It is all about the older published name taking precedence. That has to be the rule otherwise 9 different botanists could have all discovered the same species, say over a 50 year period in Brazil.
If you did not have a system in place, imagine how much worse in could be. Instead of 2 names for the same Dendrobium, you have 9!!! Every botanist would name that species by another name. And with nine names imagine how that impacts hybrids. It would expand the problem geometrically. These nine different named plants, which are the same species get crossed with nine other plants creating nine hybrids! 9 hybrids that get 9 different names but shouldn't because they are really ALL the SAME species. You think it is chaotic now?!?!?!.
The RHS is doing as much as it can but if WE, as orchids growers decide to do whatever we want, it doesn't help matters any.
When you grow orchids, it is all about the ROOTS!!!
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
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Australis
Jun 15, 2019 5:01 AM CST

Plants SuperMod

It seems this issue of Den. Nestor has snowballed since I looked at it about 36 hours ago!

I certainly would like to keep the database accurate. Bill, as you've pointed out, Little Sweetscent is now a synonym for Nestor and the database entry reflects this (as best it can with the infrastructure available):
Orchid (Dendrobium Nestor)

When Carol highlighted the differences in flower shape, I decided that as an interim measure, I would move her photos into their own entry. As she had received this plant as Den. superbum 'Little Sweet Scent' and it bears strong resemblance to the species (now Den. anosmum), I put the photos here:
Orchid (Dendrobium anosmum 'Little Sweet Scent')

I have seen several times before where a named clone unfortunately shares its name with a registered grex in the same genus. Without enough knowledge to be confident that I was indeed looking at an example of Den. Nestor, I went with the above option.

I would appreciate additional input from anyone who grows this grex and is familiar with the two parent species.

@Ursula, perhaps you can split out these posts into their own thread, please? That way we won't clutter up the June photos thread.
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Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
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Australis
Jun 15, 2019 5:04 AM CST

Plants SuperMod

Elaine @dyzzypyxxy - beautifully captured. I like the symmetry of this photo and the clean colour of the bloom. Thumbs up

Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
Name: lindsey
wesley chapel, fl
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sugarcane
Jun 15, 2019 5:47 AM CST
That's a gorgeous photo , and looking at the data base info , the synonym
Cattleya elegantissima just about sums it up! Lovey dubby
lindsey

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